Water head, pressure, pipe diameter

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Jerry Avins wrote:

Pressure tank (huge) at the well head. That system used to serve 4 houses. I finally drilled my own to get off of it as I wound up the de facto non paid maintenance man.
Harry K
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I thought the classic way of dealing with water hammer is an upright, capped, air-filled length of pipe connected to the line.
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Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
...

A riser is a way to create a volume out of materials at hand. Like any tank with water in contact with air, it needs a way to replenish the air periodically. Because the air-water interface is relatively small, loss of air is relatively slow.
Jerry
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Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use) and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed. :)
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Spaceman wrote:

And a sight glass to show when it's needed. A skinny pump is best. The volume needed isn't high, and 100 psi is easier if the tube isn't large.
Jerry
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Injecting a little oil to seal the air from the water should slow down the loss, too.
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Guy King wrote:

PVC and copper pipe is smooth enough inside so a floating plug can be fashioned with very little clearance. I don't think I would want even potable oil in mt watter supply.
Jerry
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Guy King wrote:

How about putting a synthetic rubber ball in the pipe between the water and the air?
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Just fill the stand pipe with tennis balls. Make sure the pipe is slightly wider than the balls.
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Nick wrote:

If the friction is low and the pipe smooth, that ought to work pretty well.
Jerry
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Jerry Avins wrote:

Of course the best method if a hammer is encounted is to just put in a standard surge tank. They are small, cheap and have a bladder. Install and forget.
Harry K
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Correct. There is also the possibility of using a pop-off valve as used on steam boilers set for something like 70 pounds of pressure -- located near the cabin, of course. This would assume the occasional spurt of waste water can be accommodated.
OT --I was once assigned as maintenance engineer for a group of irrigation projects. At one location we had a buried 39 inch pipe, a mile long, from a reservoir to the head of a canal. Failure of the local crews to observe operating procedures at the springtime turn on of the system resulted in water hammer that blew off three manhole structures along the length of the pipe. Fortunately, no pipe was broken and we were able to get the system back in operation before water was needed. But we should have had some kind of custom designed pressure relief device built in near the end of the pipe.
SJF
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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

No need for a regulator, the head is unlikely to vary by more than the height of the barrel anyway.

Yup, the angle makes little difference (it does dictate the length of the pipe which will have some influence on flow rate, but not static pressure.

Your 100' sounds about right

In theory, but even double your proposed head would be unlikely to cause serious problems for most pipes / fittings / brassware etc.

Nope - not unless you need to restrict pressure to some appliance not designed to handle it.
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John Rumm wrote:

That is good to know. We want the system burried around 24 to 28 inches below ground to prevent freezing, so a pressure regulator would have to be located inside and a drain tap added to it. Far better to skip the regulator if not needed.

Great. See, my 2 years of high school did finally pay off! :-)

Cool. Perhaps I'll put it 125 feet just to be sure.

That is also good to know. I would hate to put the sourse too high up the hill and have the sink blow up. :-)

The plan is for only a shower and sink. There was going to be a toilet but the ranch owners purchased a composting "dry" toilet (for $1,100! Eeeak! I could eat for six months on that amount of money).
Thank you for your reply.

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You didn't say how far up the hill the spring is... If you plan to bury the barrel higher up the hill than the spring, you will most likely have to install a pump to fill the barrel.
If you do need to install a pump, it is probably cheaper and a lot less trouble to install the barrel, pump and a pressure regulator at the cabin itself to save installing several hundred feet of pipe and pump motor cables - and maybe use the excess head pressure to run a turbine supplying power to both the pump and the cabin.
HTH, Cameron:-)
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Cameron Dorrough wrote:

Hi. Thank you for replying to my query.
The spring is quite high up the hill (at the moment I do not know the height), however there is already a pipe from it going down to the ranch. The goal here is to tap into that pipe to fill a buried 55 drum and have the over-flow continue down to the ranch. The bottom of the barrel would then be plumbed to the cabin.

There is no power at the cabin. As for the excess pressure, the amount of work (w) the water could perform at the cabin would be zero: the water flow would be at where the 55 gallon drum is. But I like the idea of getting power out of the water: at the moment the water flows into a fish pond and then is piped down to the river---- all gravity fed.

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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

But you could use the overflow if it is run through a pipe down to the cabin. That will give you 43 psi and 10gpm to work with. Would supply quite a goodly steady amount of electricity - expensive electricity until the equipment amortizes but...
The only time you would get less than 10gpm flow would be while water is being drawn at the cabin.
Re: pressure regulator. It is absolutely unneccessary unless you go -way- up the hill to install the collector barrel.
Re: pipe size. You might as well go with the 1.5 in as the difference in cost between that and a smaller size over 100 ft is minimal.
Harry K
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Harry K wrote:

Ooops. I forgot. Your total run is going to be well over 100 ft. 100 ft is only the rise. The pipe cost will still not be a budget breaker.
Harry K
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On 26 Feb 2006 18:37:31 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

You could use the water power to run a dynamo to power a windfan. That you could use to blow the wind more to counteract all those windmills that are slowing the wind down.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also.
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Cameron Dorrough wrote:
...

If there's enough flow from the spring, a hydraulic ram will be all the pump you need, and it needs no electricity or gasoline. At a friends place, the spring was on the wrong side of a hill. A hydraulic ram discharges about half the water down the hill to a "runneth over" cattle trough, and pumped water up over the top and down the other side to the house. If you're out in the middle of not much and hear a regular "fsshH whoomph; fsshH whoomph; fsshH whoomph" that's probably a hydraulic ram. It's nice to have it on the _other_ side of a hill! A do-it-yourself version: http://www.clemson.edu/irrig/Equip/ram.htm and http://www.clemson.edu/irrig/Equip/ram2.htm .
Jerry
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