Washing machine drain

I'm installing a washing machine, Sears model 110.91511100 - Whirlpool built direct drive style Kenmore washer. It's a large (not ultra-large) top loader.
The drain pipe in the laundry room is 2 inch but has an elbow that points horizontally. The open side of the elbow (pointing horizontally) is 1.5 inches, however, although the other end is 2 inches.
I went to a big hardware store hoping to find a kit that I hear should be 2 inch, with a trap and that extends to around 34 inches, maybe more above the floor. They may exist but what the guy provided me with was a means of hooking up 1.5 inch PVC. It was 3 packages (all 1.5 inch), one being a trap, the other two being 12 inch extensions. I'm ready to install, but my concern is that the 1.5 inch might not be sufficient for the flow. Should this thing overflow I will have a LOT of water on my wooden laundry room floor and a definite dryrot risk. Should I return this stuff and keep looking for a way to install 2 inch? To do that I'll have to remove that elbow but I figure I can with my 18 inch pipewrench.
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Horatio Hornblower wrote:

Put the pipe wrench away and get out the Sawzall. (I'll assume the 2" drain is down near the floor somewhere and that the drain has suitable vent connection.) Saw the 2" off at some convenient height. Use a 2" No-Hub connector to attach a length of 2" PVC. Connect a 2" PVC P-Trap to that, with an EL if needed. Extend the trap inlet upward with 2" pipe so the opening is something like 34" - 40" above floor level (or whatever the washer mfr asks for). Insert hose in open end of pipe. Put pipe clamps on to hold the PVC in place.
It's a good idea to use lint trap (screen) over the washer hose outlet to discourage drain clogging. Jim
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:Horatio Hornblower wrote: :> :> I'm installing a washing machine, Sears model 110.91511100 - Whirlpool :> built direct drive style Kenmore washer. It's a large (not ultra-large) :> top loader. :> :> The drain pipe in the laundry room is 2 inch but has an elbow that :> points horizontally. The open side of the elbow (pointing horizontally) :> is 1.5 inches, however, although the other end is 2 inches. :> :> I went to a big hardware store hoping to find a kit that I hear should :> be 2 inch, with a trap and that extends to around 34 inches, maybe more :> above the floor. They may exist but what the guy provided me with was a :> means of hooking up 1.5 inch PVC. It was 3 packages (all 1.5 inch), one :> being a trap, the other two being 12 inch extensions. I'm ready to :> install, but my concern is that the 1.5 inch might not be sufficient for :> the flow. Should this thing overflow I will have a LOT of water on my :> wooden laundry room floor and a definite dryrot risk. Should I return :> this stuff and keep looking for a way to install 2 inch? To do that I'll :> have to remove that elbow but I figure I can with my 18 inch pipewrench.: : Put the pipe wrench away and get out the Sawzall. : (I'll assume the 2" drain is down near the floor somewhere : and that the drain has suitable vent connection.) : Saw the 2" off at some convenient height. : Use a 2" No-Hub connector to attach a length of 2" PVC. : : Connect a 2" PVC P-Trap to that, with an EL if needed. : Extend the trap inlet upward with 2" pipe so the opening : is something like 34" - 40" above floor level (or whatever the : washer mfr asks for). Insert hose in open end of pipe. : Put pipe clamps on to hold the PVC in place. : : It's a good idea to use lint trap (screen) over the washer : hose outlet to discourage drain clogging. :Jim
Thanks. Sawzall! Haven't got one yet. Can get one (I've heard they're very handy, very very handy). I DO have a hacksaw. The 2 inch drain extends about a foot above the floor vertically and the middle of the elbow points out at about 14 inches above the floor. If I saw off the pipe I will be sawing off the threads. How does the "No-Hub" connector attach to the drain pipe? What is a No-Hub connector?
I'm also unfamiliar with pipe clamps but guess I can ask at the hardware store. Haven't seen lint traps for the washer outlet hose either, but will ask about that.
I'm wondering if I can just use the 1.5 inch stuff and get by for a year or two. I plan on replacing all that plumbing anyway, maybe the drain pipe too, I don't know. I don't know if it's vented, assume it is. I did test it and it does take 5 gallons/minute without backing up. It's been over 20 years since it was used.
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I found this definition of a no-hub pipe connector:
No-hub Connector A connector for no-hub iron pipe consisting of a rubber sleeve and a stainless-steel band secured by hose clamps. A variation, a neoprene sleeve with two adjustable steel bands, is used for connecting dissimilar materials, as when connecting new plastic pipe to an existing cast-iron drain pipe.
http://www.pbs.org/hometime/glossary/plumbing2.htm#nohub
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Horatio Hornblower wrote:

That would be the one. HD has 'em.
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:Horatio Hornblower wrote: :> :> I found this definition of a no-hub pipe connector: :> :> No-hub Connector :> A connector for no-hub iron pipe consisting of a rubber sleeve and a :> stainless-steel band secured by hose clamps. A variation, a neoprene :> sleeve with two adjustable steel bands, is used for connecting :> dissimilar materials, as when connecting new plastic pipe to an existing :> cast-iron drain pipe. :> :> http://www.pbs.org/hometime/glossary/plumbing2.htm#nohub : :That would be the one. HD has 'em.
Why would it be better to saw the elbow off rather than wrench it off? Is it harder to join the PVC to the iron pipe if it has outside threads?
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Horatio Hornblower wrote:

No, you can use the threaded pipe end with a PVC "female adapter". But the risk of breaking something is much higher wrenching on those ancient pipes. Jim
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:Horatio Hornblower wrote: :>
:> :> :Horatio Hornblower wrote: :> :> :> :> I found this definition of a no-hub pipe connector: :> :> :> :> No-hub Connector :> :> A connector for no-hub iron pipe consisting of a rubber sleeve and a :> :> stainless-steel band secured by hose clamps. A variation, a neoprene :> :> sleeve with two adjustable steel bands, is used for connecting :> :> dissimilar materials, as when connecting new plastic pipe to an existing :> :> cast-iron drain pipe. :> :> :> :> http://www.pbs.org/hometime/glossary/plumbing2.htm#nohub :> : :> :That would be the one. HD has 'em. :> :> Why would it be better to saw the elbow off rather than wrench it off? :> Is it harder to join the PVC to the iron pipe if it has outside threads?: : No, you can use the threaded pipe end with a PVC "female adapter". : But the risk of breaking something is much higher wrenching : on those ancient pipes. :Jim
I don't know how old that pipe is but the pipe itself doesn't _LOOK_ very old. The elbow does.
One thing is, I hate to saw off those threads because I'm thinking it's just possible I'll want to install a laundry sink in there. I'm not sure there's enough room - maybe if I can find a small enough one. There's about 2 feet extra space. That is, the space there is 4 feet and the washer's 2 feet wide. Maybe I can get a sink in there. If I saw off the threads, well, I won't be able to thread an extension on there. I guess I could still rely on a no-hub connection in that case.
Anyway, I don't have a sawzall at the moment. This project of installing the washer and dryer is turning out to be a lot more difficult than I anticipated and is taking a lot longer. I haven't even gotten to the dryer yet. In fact, I could use a sawzall to cut a hole for the vent for the dryer in the wall, so I've got half a mind to shop one.
I can't help wondering if I can't get by with 1.5 inch PVC for the trap + extension.
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Horatio Hornblower wrote:

Well, try it:-) Stand by with the mop in case... Jim
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:Horatio Hornblower wrote: : :> I can't help wondering if I can't get by with 1.5 inch PVC for the trap :> + extension.: : Well, try it:-) Stand by with the mop in case... :Jim
LOL
Yeah, you bet I thought of that. In fact I've been looking at it for days wondering if I should install. Thing is, even if it doesn't back up, that's no guarantee (I suppose) that it won't some day, and of course, on that day I won't be watching and it will just flood the all-wood floor, which will stay wet for weeks if not months.
Yesterday I went into one of my local hardware stores that has a fair amount of plumbing parts and with one of the floor-walker's help, I checked out some alternatives. They had 1.5 and 2 inch PVC stuff. The 1.5 inch is black and a LOT sturdier than the white stuff I have. However, it doesn't screw together with plastic washers like the white PVC. It has tight fitting joints that you just twist together. Inasmuch as the water won't be under pressure, maybe this won't leak, however the guy said that the way you're supposed to put it together is with liquid cement, and he showed me a metal bottle of it ($2.50 or so).
The black 1.5 inch would only be around $4 more than the white (which I now figure I should return), and the 2 inch stuff would maybe cost twice as much - $25 to $30. Maybe I can do better at Home Depot.
Anyway, now I'm thinking maybe I should just install the 2 inch for the peace of mind. If it got clogged some with lint down the line at some point and overflowed, I'd feel stupid for having skimped on it.
If I go 2 inch, I'll need to either crank off that elbow or saw it off, like you say.
Dan
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:Horatio Hornblower wrote: :>
:> :> :Horatio Hornblower wrote: :> :> :> :> I found this definition of a no-hub pipe connector: :> :> :> :> No-hub Connector :> :> A connector for no-hub iron pipe consisting of a rubber sleeve and a :> :> stainless-steel band secured by hose clamps. A variation, a neoprene :> :> sleeve with two adjustable steel bands, is used for connecting :> :> dissimilar materials, as when connecting new plastic pipe to an existing :> :> cast-iron drain pipe. :> :> :> :> http://www.pbs.org/hometime/glossary/plumbing2.htm#nohub :> : :> :That would be the one. HD has 'em. :> :> Why would it be better to saw the elbow off rather than wrench it off? :> Is it harder to join the PVC to the iron pipe if it has outside threads?: : No, you can use the threaded pipe end with a PVC "female adapter". : But the risk of breaking something is much higher wrenching : on those ancient pipes. :Jim
I got the elbow off! Used the 18" aluminum pipe wrench I bought the other day. Swatted the elbow simultaneously from both sides with a hammer and sledge hammer, working my way all the way around. That loosened the rusted joint enough where I could torque the elbow off.
Now I have the standpipe, which is outside-threaded 2 inch and tops off at 12.5 inches above the floor. I'm going to check out Home Depot today and see what they have. I think I'm going with 2 inch. See if I can find one of those filters you were talking about for the drain water.
That pipe felt totally solid. I wasn't too worried that I'd break anything. Nothing was giving at ALL.
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Horatio Hornblower wrote: <SNIP>

Had one more thought, now that you've got this far.
It's possible (likely) that the flow rate thru the trap will cause self-siphoning and a dry trap.
I would do this:
| Standpipe for hose Auto-vent O | | | | | 2" 2" San TEE H-----U P-Trap | D 2" Female adapter | | | Existing pipe
The Auto-vent is a mechanical venting device which will allow air to enter and prevent siphoning. HD has them in 1 1/2" size; use a reducing coupling and a 1 1/2" female adapter.
It's not much work to do all this and will save you having to re-do it.
Jim
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:Horatio Hornblower wrote: :<SNIP> :> I got the elbow off! Used the 18" aluminum pipe wrench I bought the :> other day. Swatted the elbow simultaneously from both sides with a :> hammer and sledge hammer, working my way all the way around. That :> loosened the rusted joint enough where I could torque the elbow off. :> :> Now I have the standpipe, which is outside-threaded 2 inch and tops off :> at 12.5 inches above the floor. I'm going to check out Home Depot today :> and see what they have. I think I'm going with 2 inch. See if I can find :> one of those filters you were talking about for the drain water. :> :> That pipe felt totally solid. I wasn't too worried that I'd break :> anything. Nothing was giving at ALL.: : Had one more thought, now that you've got this far. : : It's possible (likely) that the flow rate thru the trap : will cause self-siphoning and a dry trap. : : I would do this: : : : | Standpipe for hose : Auto-vent O | : | | : | | 2" : 2" San TEE H-----U P-Trap : | : D 2" Female adapter : | : | : | Existing pipe : : The Auto-vent is a mechanical venting device which will allow :air to enter and prevent siphoning. HD has them in 1 1/2" size; :use a reducing coupling and a 1 1/2" female adapter. : : It's not much work to do all this and will save you having :to re-do it. : :Jim
Self siphoning? Are you saying that the momentum of the water flowing down the tube will propel it beyond the trap leaving it dry?
I have another problem, I think. I'm starting a new thread right now and will call it:
Subject: Washing machine drain backs up!
See ya there, I hope!
Yes, even with 2 inch the water came spurting out the top. It really took me by surprise. Thanks for the help.
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Horatio Hornblower wrote: <SNIP>

Yes, that's exactly right. Jim
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You know I been following this thread with a bit of skepticism, then I was near the tub today as it was running.
I could hear water, which was running out of the drain, there was a constant trickle of water coming out, while it was agitating. When I raised the drain line up, it stopped. When I lowered it, so that it ran down, and not in a loop, it started a trickle again.
I thought this whole thread was a, well a bit much, but after seeing the evidence for myself, I'm convinced.
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I guess you've been blessed with having to siphon gas out of a car?
BTW. You can read about the effect in relation to washers at the following link:
My washer doesn't seem to be able to hold water. What's the problem? http://ng.appliance411.com/links/jump.cgi?IDS4
Dan O. - Appliance411.com http://ng.Appliance411.com/?ref411=clothes+washer
=~~~~~~
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On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:43:25 -0500, "Dan O."
: :>John Hines wrote in message ...:> :>I thought this whole thread was a, well a bit much, but :>after seeing the evidence for myself, I'm convinced.: :I guess you've been blessed with having to siphon gas out of a car? : :BTW. You can read about the effect in relation to washers at the :following link: : :My washer doesn't seem to be able to hold water. What's the problem? :http://ng.appliance411.com/links/jump.cgi?IDS4
Personally, I think the above link to FAQ explaining that the water goes only so high because of siphoning has it wrong. I don't believe it's siphoning that's keeping the water too low. It's just like any pool of water in a stream - it will take the level of the lowest drainage. In this case, the lowest drainage is the highest part of the drain hose.
Dan : :Dan O. :- :Appliance411.com :http://ng.Appliance411.com/?ref411=clothes+washer : :=~~~~~~ : :
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