Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?

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On Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:21:53 AM UTC-4, Tony Hwang wrote:

IDK that it's even the pilots decision on the route. As I understand it, the routes are set months in advance by the airlines taking into account a variety of factors. They then send those requested routes to the ATCs that govern the airspaces. A pilot can request a change, but I would think they need to have a reason. If Malaysian Airlines was OK with the route over Ukraine, I think a pilot would run into trouble if he said, I'm not flying over Ukraine, I want to go 500 miles out of the way to avoid the area.
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trader_4 wrote:

Hi, Also NOTAM.
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On 7/18/2014 1:16 PM, nestork wrote:

Or maybe the guy hit what he wanted?
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MAS has been effectively bankrupt for many years and for good reasons (it is absolutely ****, I flew it once and vowed never to set foot on it ever again).
When an airline is in that situation anything can happen.
The pilots and other staff it can attract and maintain are severely limited leading to a brain drain. The maintenance budget is going to get cut to the bone. They are going to consider carrying cargo that other airlines would not touch with a barge pole. Crew are going to consider routes and other means to save the company money etc.
It is tragic but you have to ask yourself why did these people choose to fly with this airline? Some of them already had experience of relations and friends disappearing on MH370 with all of the lies and subterfuge surrounding that.
At some point people really have to take responsibility for their own actions.
On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 09:14:17 -0400, HomeGuy

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On Sunday, July 20, 2014 11:39:55 AM UTC-4, nam sak wrote:

While you're trying to finger Malaysian Airlines, from what I have seen, what they did was no different than most other airlines operating in that part of the world. It was European air traffic control that declared the space above 32000 safe, and AFAIK other airlines flew similar routes over that airspace. In fact, I haven't seen a single airline that has said they flew around it, instead of going over it. If you have some examples, I'd be happy to see them.

Do you check the air route that flights you're going to go on take, to vet that they are safe? No evidence I see that MA did anything differently than other airlines flying similar routes. Should they have? Yes, but so should all the other airlines and more importantly European air traffic control, which had the space open.
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Normally no I don't check the route, unless there are volcanic eruptions or something like that since some airlines are willing to take more risks than others. In general I think it would be pretty impractical to even try since the pilot could change the route anyway.
I check the background of the airline. If during that process I discovered that following a major incident the airline:-
-waited hours before declaring the aircraft missing
-said they had no primary radar data of the aircraft only to turn around and say they did when leaks started coming out of other countries
-squandered international resources and precious time scouring the South China Sea/Gulf of Thailand when they already knew it wasn't there
-initially rubbished reports that satellite data suggested the aircraft had flown for hours only to backtrack when leaks started coming out of Inmarsat
-claimed the last communication was the co-pilot saying all right good night only to later admit they had lied without a word of explanation
-claimed the cargo was mangosteens and nothing that could be hazardous only to later admit it was carrying Lithium Ion Batteries when another leak emerged. And still today have not released full details of the cargo
-said they didn't know where it was but knew it was not in the Maldives
etc
Then you know I am not going to be in a rush to get on one of their aircraft and anyone that does is an idiot.
On Sun, 20 Jul 2014 09:55:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

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On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 3:44:04 AM UTC-4, nam sak wrote:

I don't disagree with the fact that MA probably isn't the best or safest airline to fly. But so far, I've seen absolutely nothing that suggests they handled their routing of flights any differently than most other airlines. Do you have any evidence that any other airline specifically avoided that portion of European airspace where the shoot down occured, that was open to all traffic?
If you want to argue that had a passenger chosen not to fly on MA because of what happened with MA370, the airline losing money, etc, then that would have kept them off the flight purely by chance. AFAIK, they could just as easily have booked another airline that flew over Ukraine too. If you look at a map, it's the logical direct route to that area of the world. And if you want to say that passengers need to be more vigilent, then they do need to check the flight route, because that's what brought the plane down, not the airline or it's decisions, that again, AFAIK, were not any different than any other airline.
If MA was doing things differently than other airlines, you would think that story would be all over the news by now. Instead we have stories like this, which sure seem to indicate that most other airlines were doing similar routing:
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-07/21/ukraine-flights
"When MH17 was shot down, it was right next to two other passenger planes operated by Air India and Singapore Airlines.
Now that it's clear flying at cruising altitude over eastern Ukraine isn't safe after all, everyone's avoiding the area. According to media reports, A litalia, Lufthansa, Air France, British Airways, Aeroflot, Turkish Airlines , and Transaero have all announced they will divert flights away from easte rn Ukraine for the foreseeable future. The Ukrainian civil aviation authori ty has closed all airspace in the area to flights, and the FAA says US carr iers have voluntarily agreed not to fly in the airspace near the Ukraine-Ru ssia border until further notice."
Finally, almost everything on that list that you blame MA for, was actually the Malayasian govt and would have happened to any other airline departing from Malaysia. The Malaysian govt had the military radar track, the civian radar track. They are the ones that set the search area. They also had the communications between ATC and the aircraft. About the only thing on that list that might be the blamed on the airline is the cargo manifest. And I'm about 80% sure that was under the control of the Malaysian govt too. Following a crash the govt of the country having jurisdiction has control of the investigation and all other parties are limited in what they can say and release.
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<stuff snipped>

While I agree with Trader that the Ukrainian shoot down was just very bad luck for Malaysian Airlines, your recap of what happened re: flight MH370 should remind anyone with a brain not to fly MA. If there was any chance those people were still alive, MA squandered it - and maybe several chances. That's not what you want if something bad happens in flight.
The misleading and downright false information they released in the days following the crash lead me to believe they're hiding something. The errors and retractions seem to have gone far beyond the confusion the follows such tragedies. At several points they appear to have been forced to retract a previous "story" when data (i.e. Thai radar tracks) appeared and contradicted MA's previous statements.
I lean towards believing the pilot wanted his opposition leader friend released and was trying to negotiate with the Malaysian government.
There are also some interesting questions you raised about who's going to pay out the claims for the airplane and the passengers. If the government's going to pay, they really shouldn't be leading the investigation. That's a serious conflict of interest.
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On Thursday, July 24, 2014 7:56:03 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

You're just as confused as Nam. Malaysian Airlines didn't control the search and rescue effort. It was the Malaysian Govt. And the govt had the radar tracks, the ATC communication, etc. It could have been a Lufthansa flight and the initial response would have been the same.

So then you should be able to show us where the Thai radar tracks forced this change in statements. AFAIK, it was Thailand that finally fessed up 10 days into it, that they did in fact have radar tracks. Prior to that, Thailand had publically denied having any such data. And by the time Thailand changed their story, the search had already moved to the Straits a week earlier, based on Malaysian military radar tracks. The Thai data just confirmed the new search area. That is the version as I know it. And if you want to paint wild conspiracy theories, then Thailand must have been in on it too.

And this negotiating took place how exactly? The ATC frequencies are open and can be monitored by other aircraft, ATC of various countries would have recordings, even amatures on the ground listen in. And how did they stay in contact with Malaysians while the plane was traveling thousands of miles, on to Australia? good grief.

You get with them and discuss that.
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On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 08:12:11 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

and more stuff snipped. (this thread is getting a it too long to avoid it)

Always nice when someone tells you that you are confused when you clearly are not. Did you even watch the Hishammuddin press conferences? You remember? Hishammuddin. He is the Defence Minister. He was also the Transport Minister, the Minister of Home Affairs and Minister of Education (there has to be an oxymoron on a global scale there somewhere). He also just happens to be the cousin of the Prime Minister, the son of another prime minister and the nephew of another prime minister of the UMNO. The UMNO - you know, the 'party' that has been in power for the last 60 years.
Well if you did watch those press conferences you might have seen a little guy standing next to him nodding his head and tugging his forelock under his Al Haji hat every time Hishammuddin opened his mouth. In case you are wondering who he was he is the head of MAS. MAS - you know the airline that is owned by....who was it again? Oh knickers I have forgotten. I am sure it was somebody's brother or nephew or something. Or was their wife? Or maybe their brother in law. Oh dear it all gets so confusing. So maybe you are correct in a roundabout way.

Publicly denied sort of. As I remember it the Thais just did not say anything publicly. But I am informed they told MAS on day 1 and were banging their heads against the Malaysian Junta's brick wall for days afterwards before threatening them with exposure.

There is a rumour that the airliner flew near Indonesian air space for an extended period of time following the incident. The theory was that the pilot was trying to negotiate with the government. I agree you think someone else would have heard it and leaked it by now but would they have a recording to back it up? I am not so sure. All those involved did less than the basic minimum you would expect in terms of procedure so it is not that far fetched to speculate that at that time of night most of them were watching a Hindi movie and eating noodles while pretending to do their job. The major thing that makes me think it is not true is why then fly off into nowhere? Why not just head straight for KLCC.

I didn't understand that. Sounded like you were running out of steam.
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On Saturday, July 26, 2014 7:34:45 AM UTC-4, nam sak wrote:

e.

You are confused, because none of that has anything to do with the fact that the Malaysian govt was in charge of the search and rescue, not the airline. Hishammuddin was the govt official, appointed by the govt to lead the whole thing. Good grief.
The govt was subsequently in charge of the investigation, because it's an airline operating out of Malaysia and that's how it works, per internationa l treaty. The same thing would have happened if it was a private airline operating out of Malaysia, ie not govt owned. Or if JAL or Lufthansa had crashed in Malaysia. Why is that so hard to gra sp?
And again, I'd like to see one example of what you think happens, ie the airline publically disagreeing with the govt officials leading the search/rescue or the investigation itself in the days immediately following a crash. Show us just one. IDK of any, ever, regardless of whether the ai rline was privately owned or govt owned.
And IDK what you expected the airline to disagree with in the first couple of weeks. Again, for the first few days, Malaysia govt officials focused on what info they had and all that pointed to a sudden, catastrophi c event over the South China Sea at the last coordinates. Malaysia military said they had no tracks. What exactly was MA or any airline supposed to do at that point? Several days later, Malaysian military said they actually did have what could be radar tracks of the plane. Then the confusion start ed over if it was real or not, was it the plane, etc. All that was squarely o n the Malaysian military and the Malaysian investigators. And I don't see it being much different if Lufthansa was the airline.

,

Wrong again:
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405270230354620457943684331818 4308
From the WSJ, six days into the search:
"While the aircraft was never picked up by Thailand's civilian radar, Royal Thai Air Force spokesman Monthon Satchukorn said that military radar had b riefly detected the plane as it traveled along its planned flight path."
(that detection was as it departed KL, not the portion of interest, ie after it went missing over the South China Sea.)
9 days into the search:
http://thainews.prd.go.th/centerweb/newsen/NewsDetail?NT01_NewsID=WNFOR57 03170010001#sthash.xARwVTp9.dpuf
"BANGKOK, 17 Mar 2014 -- The Royal Thai Air Force has denied that its radar detected the missing Malaysia Airline Flight MH 370 before it went missing , as claimed by Malaysia. Air Force spokesperson Air Marshal Monton Sachikorn, made the announcement, reiterating that the 777-200ER Boeing jet showed up only once in the Air F orce radar system when it left the airport in Kuala Lumpur on March 8th. Th e information has since been passed to the Malaysian officials, said the sp okesperson.
12 days into the search:
http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2014/03/20/mh370-thai-air-force-denies-it-withhe ld-radar-data-related-missing-plane
"Facing criticism worldwide for a delayed release of radar information whic h might have showed a missing airplane, Air Force officials defended their actions yesterday.
Radar data possibly related to the missing Malaysian Airlines flight 370 wa sn't withheld; instead the data was never checked until a request was made on March 11, three days after the plane's disappearance, said Air Marshal M onthon Satchakon, Air Force spokesman. The radar information was eventually given to Malaysian officials seven days later."
So, for your version to be true, Thailand deliberately lied to the world fo r 10 days and continues to lie. And obviously contrary to your recollection, Thailand was doing it publically.

There is a rumor that Elvis is alive too. And just like Elvis;s death certificate and autopsy, we have the Inmarsat data in this case that shows otherwise.
I agree you

They wouldn't need a recording any more than those that claim Elvis is alive or that they talked to aliens need a picture.
All those

That I agree with. If it was someone holding hostages for ransom then it seems more likely they would have done something far more dramatic. The other huge hole in all that is that it obviously could not work. The chance of achieving the objective, getting away with it, is close to zero.
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MAS 00 60 3-7843 3000 http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/us/en/contact.html
PIA 0800 587 1023 http://www.piac.com.pk/pia_policynterms/pia-contactus.asp
Saudia 1-800-472-8342 http://stageenv.saudiairlines.com/saudia/Alfursan/Contact+Us
El Al 1-800-223-6700 http://www.elal.co.il/ELAL/English/States/UK?gclid=CPLj_Pfu6r8CFQeWtAodIgkARw
Shit for Brains Airlines 1-800-666-6666 http://www.shitforbrainsairlines.com/youkeeptalkingcrapandexpecteveryonetobelieveit/remindsmeofamaidenauntiusedtohave/shesdeadnowthankgod
I wish I could say good luck on your trips on the above airlines but I am by nature a very honest person and saying good luck would not be correctly reflecting my feelings.
On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 06:17:30 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

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On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 12:00:38 PM UTC-4, nam sak wrote:

Of course rating international airlines was never the topic of discussion. Neither was anti-Semitism, but somehow you managed to drag that in too. The issue was whether the passengers on MH17 deserved some of the blame for their own deaths, as you claimed. Idiot.
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I swore blind to myself I would not be goaded into saying anything further to you but I find myself finding it impossible to avoid.
Your use of the term 'anti Semite in a previous post really irked me.
I have 2 questions
1. I am truly disgusted with the behaviour of Israel since it's creation. Does it make me an anti Semite?
2. What is the equivalent term for an anti Palestinian? Or anti anything else come to that. Why is it we only have a term for anti Jews?
On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 09:49:58 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

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On 7/30/2014 1:33 PM, nam sak wrote:

No. It means that you're clueless.
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Thank you for so effectively summarising the problem.
A nation of mindless retards presided over by a mindless retard supporting THE most blood thirsty cabal of filth the earth has ever seen.
You know I was in Vietnam a couple of weeks ago. They do not hate you. They feel sorry for you.
I do not.
I have seen the destruction and the (still) unexploded bombs you dropped on Laos because you were not allowed to land back at Korat with bombs on board after an 'unsuccessful mission.
You truly make me sick.
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