Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?

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Was Flight MH-17 Diverted Over Restricted Airspace?
07/17/2014
While there are various questions that have already emerged from what was supposed to be Ukraine's "slam dunk" proof confirming Russian rebel involvement in today's MH-17 tragedy, perhaps one just as gaping question emerges when one looks at what is clearly an outlier flight path in today's final, and tragic, departure of the Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777.
Perhaps the best visualization of what the issue is, comes from Vagelis Karmiros who has collated all the recent MH-17 flight paths as tracked by Flightaware and shows that while all ten most recent paths pass safely well south of the Donetsk region, and cross the zone above the Sea of Azov, it was only today's tragic flight that passed straight overhead Donetsk.
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/07/MH%2017%20flight%20paths_0.png
Why is the diversion from the traditional flight path and passage over the highlighted zone a concern? Because as the following map from the WSJ shows this is precisely where the restricted airspace is.
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/07/restricted%20air%20space.png
So perhaps before coming to "certain" conclusion about the involvement of this rebel or that, the key questions one should ask before casting blame, is why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan, why did he fly above restricted airspace, and just what, if any instructions, did Kiev air control give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/was-flight-mh-17-diverted-over-restricted-airspace
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On Friday, July 18, 2014 9:14:17 AM UTC-4, H o m e G u y wrote:

The fallacy here is that the south is the "safe" area. Actually, AFAIK, all of the Ukraine airspace was open to air traffic above 32,000 ft. And in fact it was the southern portion of the airspace, that the USA and UK civil aviation authorities had issued NOTAMs to avoid at any flight level. That concern apparently was over who controlled that airspace, which includes Crimea, rather than concern about missles. Russia was claiming that it now controlled that space. And those NOTAMs only applied to USA, UK airlines or any other countries that might choose to follow them.
If those flight paths are indeed true, I agree it should be determined why the flight path was more northerly. But all you have there are 10 previous flight paths, not hundreds covering months. Not a whole lot to base anything on, at this point.

That map is totally lame. They just put the word restricted on it without any deliniation whatever. My understanding is the restriction from European authorities was over *all* the eastern Ukraine airspace *below* 32,000ft. And above 32,000ft it was not restricted.

Yes, all that should and will be investigated. One of the most basic questions is why airspace was open at all in a conflict region where planes have been shot down with SAMs and where there is reason to believe forces involved have missles of unknown max capibility.
Meanwhile, where is your concern about some of the obvious things:
The Russian rebels have shot down several planes in recent weeks, boldy taking public credit for it. They also proclaimed "Don't fly in our skies". Just a week or so ago, before that started happening, they proclaimed that they had acquired the Buk missle system from a Ukranian military base they captured. And they have gleefully claimed that they have the black boxes and they are on their way to Moscow. At the same time, they are denying access to the crash site. That is just what they themselves have freely admitted, there is even more intelligence data that shows what they were up to.
Instead of starting to come up with possible conspiracy angles that involve air traffic control intentionally sending the plane to it's doom, how about focusing on the 12 ft elephant in the room?
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On Fri, 18 Jul 2014 07:00:00 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

The story that the news was reporting yesterday is they requested the northerly path to avoid weather. The NOTAM issued by the US may have been because we knew the insurgents were getting the BUK systems but it was not common knowledge everywhere.
I don't see much mystery here. It just looks like the fog of war and a bad decision by MAL to fly too close to a war zone. It is apparent now that with the systems available, there is no safe altitude above a war zone
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On Friday, July 18, 2014 10:43:06 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

From what I have seen the NOTAM had nothing to do with missles period. It was because both Ukraine and Russia were claiming control over the airspace around Crimea. If you don't know which authority controls the airspace, it would make sense to stay out of it. And the NOTAM area is fairly small, around Crimea.

Who exactly made the decision that it was safe to fly above 32,000 but not below it, and how, is an interesting one. It just seems incredible that some aviation authorities would determine that it was safe. On what basis? The rebels had openly taken credit for shooting down several planes and I think the highest one was over 20,000 ft. So, how does anyone decide that 32,000 is safe? How could they know what exact missles the rebels do or don't have?
But I agree there is no need to go to vast conspiracy theories when just dumb, bad decisions have been found as the root cause almost all of the time. I was watching a show on NAt Geographic about past aviation disasters. They had a crash at the airport in Taiwan where a 747 tried to take off at night in heavy rain, wind close to the max permitted, during a monsoon. They were so caught up in worrying about all that, they managed to turn off too soon onto a closed runway and struck eqpt near their rotation point. The thing there that was incredibly dumb was that the runway had been closed for repairs for months. Yet there was no barracade, nothing at the entry point to indicate that it was closed. And they also had it lit with the normal runway lights..... That would seem to be about as dumb and totally irresponsible as you can get, but they did it.
A good question in the current case is whoever fired the missle, what exactly did they think they were shooting at? If they targeted that plane, IDK why they would think it was a Ukranian military plane. It was at 33,000, heading into Russia, just 50KM from crossing the border on it's way out.
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The bottom line here is that the guy with his finger on the Launch button violated the First Law of gun ownership, which is:
If you're not 100% certain of what you're aiming at, DON'T SHOOT!!!
Put this one in the same bag as "I thought he was a deer."
--
nestork


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nestork wrote:

Shit happens:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
The US paid some blood money but never apologized for the 'I thought it was a tomcat' moment. Of course, the crew of the Vincennes were fine, upstanding sailors who made a tragic mistake, and the Ukrainian separatists are terrorists.
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point taken, but the Uks could not possibly have felt threatened by that aircraft, unlike the Vincennes.
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Pico Rico wrote:

I think the reality is something like if Jeeter and Cletus stole a Patriot system and started pushing buttons without RTFM. Zapping a Malaysian commercial liner full of Dutchmen isn't a win in anybody's book withoit spinning out some very convoluted false flag operation.
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wrote:

I don't think there is much mystery here. We seem to know what happened and all of this investigation is just gee whiz information about what happens when a Buk missile hits a 777
I wouldn't be surprised if there was some quick "Russian justice" where they grab a couple rebel fighters, give them a quick "trial" and shoot them. Then Putin can say "case closed, we took care of it".
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

How's you eBay account?
http://theaviationist.com/2014/03/06/tu-95-bear-on-ebay/
You probably can pick up a low mileage Tu-95 cheap. The neighbors might be upset since those counter-rotating props make it one on the noisiest planes ever built but it's a real workhorse.
I wouldn't fly it over easern Ukraine though.
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Well put. It's also a good reminder about who we're dealing with. Some are terrorists willing to die (and make others die) to promote their cause. Then, we're also dealing with the double-dealing Sovs, who have a history of subterfuge which they're continuing by using soldiers without insignia and shadowy operations as far as the eye can see. I'd consider people on all sides (it's hardly just two sides ever anymore) are rash thinkers. So many people could be behind this. It will probably never be adequately sorted out.
I treat this the way I treat computer evidence. Unless you actually see someone typing specific keys or pressing the launch button on a video, it's very, VERY hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt who really did what. I see computer evidence entered into court that's completely untrustworthy yet it passes muster because no one knows any better. We could get lucky and the idiots who did this videoed themselves pushing the buttons and watching the missile strike but short of that, that crime scene is mobile, multiple and extremely contaminated.
I suspect that there are two or three guys on a major shi+ list that will find themselves accused and convicted of the offense as Gfretwell suggested. Law enforcement over there is a little lax and a lot bribed.
This is also the kind of stupid act one side would just love to "pin" on the other to discredit them. It could be so many different things that it's sadly inevitable that convoluted explanations will be growing like mushrooms on a wet log.
I'll bet that part of the world is literally crawling with people who are not who the say they are. Every intelligence agency in Europe and the CIA probably has clandestine assets on the ground, there are Russians pretending to be Ukranians and I am sure vice-versa. On top of that, we have journalists interpreting almost everything we know.
This is actually a wake up call that this conflict has gotten out of hand and needs to be resolved. Rope off Putin and Russia and the Ukraine from the rest of the world for a while and let their oligarchs whine about how bad business and travel has become for them. That will do it. Putin rules because they support him despite what he makes it look like.
Fortunately modern air travel has lessened the number of casualties from such incidents so it's hard to turn a downed aircraft into a cause for war the way the Lusitania was. Now, no passenger planes should be allowed to fly into either country until the legitimate governments of both countries reach (and enforce) an agreement.
Of course, I could be easily persuaded that it was a Sov missile launcher and so it was the Sovs who are ultimately responsible. I wonder what it takes to ensure these systems can NEVER be used to target a civilian air liner? Probably a bad idea, anyway in case you have to shoot down a kamikaze attacker like 9/11.
KAL007, the Iranian Airbus and many other airliners have gone down as mis-perceived threats or "deliberate" accidents. I think another might be joining that list.
--
Bobby G.



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nam sak wrote:

I doubt there are a lot of buses going to Kuala Lumpur.
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Yeah, it's just a bunch of guys that got together with the latest Russian military hardware (that the rank and file Russian soldiers don't even have) and who somehow ALL forgot to put their nation's insignia on their uniform. That's if you believe Putin and I don't even think Putin believes Putin anymore.
--
Bobby G.



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You pretty much hit the nail on the head there.
When you fly MAS you are not flying on a normal airline. You are flying on a bankrupt vessel of the Malaysian Government. A Government that makes the Third Reich look like a teddy bear's picnic.
I disagree though about your comment about 'would have happened to any other airline departing from Malaysia'. Don't understand that bit.
On Tue, 22 Jul 2014 06:14:41 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

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On Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:55:01 PM UTC-4, nam sak wrote:

Are you really sure you want to make that comparison? And from what I understand it's a publicly traded company, the govt owns about half of it. In international aviation, I don't think that's unusual at all.

I went a little off track there. My point was that most of the bungling of important matters with MA370 was coming from the Malaysian govt officials in charge of the investigation, not the airline. They had control of the response and the crash investigation, not the airline. So, for example, the initial confusion that followed for several days, where the Malaysian govt pointed the search in the South China Sea, could have and likely would have happened without regard to what carrier it was. If it was a Korean Air, Singapore Airline or Lufthansa, that took off from KL, the response in the hours that followed, would likely have been pretty much the same. They would have had to rely on what Malaysia was saying their civilian and military radar showed. And initially, Malaysia said that the civilian radar ended exactly when everything else went dark, so it seems very reasonable that the search would have started at the same place, which turned out to be totally wrong.
Where I went off track was that had it been a foreign airline, then that country would have been in charge of the subsequent investigation. That probably could have saved much of the public missteps, backtracking, etc. Not sure how much time it would have cut off the search though. They still would have been at the mercy of the Malaysians, who for example were reluctant to allow anyone to see their military radar tracks of the flight. They may have taken exactly the same position if it was Lufthansa that was running the investigation, ie they may have refused for days to allow them to see it too.
Back to the main issue of what airspace is cleared, deemed safe and by who, I had CNN on today. Their reporter said that the organization that represents most of the international carriers, (think it was IATA), issued a statement a few days ago that said the position of it's member airlines is that they don't determine which airspace is safe, that it's entirely up to civilian govt aviation authorities.
And I'm sure you'll love this. On the news last night they showed the flight path taken yesterday by Malaysian Airlines from KL to London. It went right over Iraq and Syria. And again, I think if you look, you'll see that most, maybe all airlines that fly routes where that is the shortest path, do the same. It's deemed safe by whatever govt authorities have control over it and permitted.
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On Tue, 22 Jul 2014 14:17:17 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

Yes very very sure. Racial discrimination is not only considered normal in Malaysia it is actively encouraged by government policy. Denialists either disappear or when they are too well known are put in jail on a variety of dubious charges. I think the only major difference I can see between the Malaysian Government and the Third Reich is that the Third Reich only lasted just over 10 years whereas the Malaysian Reich has lasted nearly 60. In part because it has been propped up by 'the west' in the mistaken belief that it is 'friendly'. Reminds me of a certain Mr. Chamberlain.
I would be interested to know which half of MAS the government owns. I know about the 52 % that Penerbangan Malaysia Berhad (Malaysian Government) owns and the 17% Khazanah Nasional (Malaysian Government) owns and the 11% the Employees Provident Fund (Malaysian Government) owns and the 6% Amanah Raya Nominees (Malaysian Government) owns and the 3% State Financial Secretary Sarawak (Malaysian Government) owns and the 2.5% Warisan Harta Sabah (Malaysian Government) owns........
Actually when I think about it the major gap in my knowledge is exactly which shares the Malaysian Government does not own. They claim that 5% belongs to what they refer to as 'foreign shareholders'. If you can find out who they are then I would be very interested. In the absence of information to the contrary I am tempted to assume that the 'foreign shareholdes' are part of the Malaysian Fuhrer's untaxed offshore 'pension fund'. If I am right then we can at least take comfort from the fact that at the end of the day he will be lucky to get a few magic beans for them.
Personally I do not think that is usual for an airline. Particularly one that tries to sell itself as living in the real world.

airline's attempts but I think to generalize like this is may be going a bit too far. I like to think that after a short while any reputable airline would have told Hishammuddin where to stick his phony press conferences and just gone public. Considering their insurance and other responsibilities it is difficult to imagine how the CEO of a normal public company could have avoided doing so without risking a jail sentence.
The primary radar data is a good example. It was not Malaysian primary radar data that initiated a series of questions that forced the Malaysians to begin telling more of the story. It was THAI primary radar data. The Thais released it to the airline (MAS). The airline released it to their bosses (the Malaysian Government) and then kept schtum. Their bosses (the Malaysian Government) then encouraged several other countries to waste time and effort and put their own lives at risk looking for an airliner where they knew themselves it was not. What kind of airline/government does that for goodness sake? and why?
I have performed several operational audits of (civilian) Thai Air Traffic control and I have been told that the only reason the Malaysians went public about their own primary radar data was because the Thai Military gave them an ultimatum. Release your data in 24 hours or we will release ours.
If this information had been released to a 'normal' airline and the Malaysian Government chose to keep quiet about it in their press conferences do you honestly think a normal airline would just let it go? Alarm bells would have been ringing right left and Centre and they would have read the Malaysian Government the riot act. If the Malaysians had continued to obfuscate then some whistle blower at the airline would have released the details (after having been secretly ordered to do so by the CEO).
But MAS? What choice does it have?
It IS the Government.

As said above the Malaysian radar data was not significant. It was only released after they were threatened with exposure. By the time the Malaysians (sort of*) released their own radar data everyone already knew what had happened. The key fact was that MAS being owned by the Malaysian Government was not willing to say anything that went against Government Policy and so kept quiet about critical information that had nothing to with national security only national trying to save egg on face.
*I say sort of because the Malaysian Government has still not actually released it, along with most other things concerned with MH370 (Particular the cargo - they have released dribs and drabs but not the full details. National security? ROTFLMAO).

I think I said previously that I am not too much bothered about routes unless some volcano is blowing it's top. There is always going to be a risk. When I choose an airline (in general) the route is not going to feature much in my selection process. I focus on is it non stop and the airline not the route. And IMO anyone that would fly MAS needs to seriously reconsider their selection criteria.
I don't know if it's relevant but if I am totally totally honest the reason I told my employer that I would never fly MAS ever again (at the risk of losing my job) was just a feeling. Malaysians and Singaporeans can be very similar in my opinion. They are arrogant, rude, loud and obnoxious. But SQ seem to have it right when they hire staff. I would fly with them any time. But MAS? Sorry, no way. If you want to fly Malaysian Government Airways then good luck. You'll need it.
There are only 2 airlines that I can think of that are worse than MAS.
- British Airways - Qantas
If I was given the choice between flying MAS, BA or QF I honestly think my head would explode.
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On Wednesday, July 23, 2014 3:00:29 AM UTC-4, nam sak wrote:

If that is the only difference you see, you need a history lesson. I'm sure I'm not the only one here that finds the comparison offensive.

I was unaware that the other companies were also Malaysian govt agencies. So, you're right that the airline is owned almost entirely by the Malaysian govt, through one agency or another. Not that it's unusual or really matters. Even if MA was a private company based in Malaysia, the same Malaysian officials would have been in charge of the crash investigation.

And see their business booted out of the country? And gone public with what exactly? The Malaysian govt had almost all the pertinent data: civilian and military radar tracks that were critical, communication with ATC, communication with other countries, ie Thailand, Vietnam, Chinaa
Considering their insurance and

Jail sentence? There is nothing criminal in following the law that says the Malaysian govt officials run the investigation. On the one hand you claim that the Malaysian govt is like the third reich, then you expect airline execs to overrule them, interfere in the investigation? Sounds like that is far more likely to get you a jail sentence.

AFAIK that is incorrect. In fact, why aren't you blaming Thailand for incompetence and/or lying too? For 10 days they said they had no radar contact with the missing plane. By the time they changed their story, the search had already moved to the Straits of Malacca anyway and all they did was confirm that they had a radar track of an unknown plane going that route.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2014/03/18/mh370_thailand_s_military_finally_shares_radar_data_that_would_have_been.html
http://www.france24.com/en/20140319-thai-radar-unknown-aircraft-mh370-malaysia/
"Thailand Shares MH370 Radar Data That Could Have Been Really Helpful a Week Ago"
The airline

I've never heard this version and it makes no sense. Why would Thailand be talking to the airline, instead of Malaysian govt investigators leading the investigation?
Their bosses (the Malaysian Government) then encouraged

If you have credible evidence that Thailand actually told Malaysians early in the investigation that they had radar contact I'd be happy to see it. AFAIK Thailand vigorously denied having anything, until about 10 days after the plane went missing, by which time the search had already moved to the Straits. And why no blame for Thailand? Either they didn't know they had a radar track or they didn't tell Malaysia for 10 days, (the correct version AFAIK), or else they told them much earlier and sat back and watched the world search in the wrong place for 10 days (your version).

Which still says nothing about the timeline. Was that at day 1, 2, 10?

I don't believe that data is normally released to the airline period. It would be by Thai aviation/govt authorities to Malaysian investigators conducting the investigation.
Alarm bells would have been ringing right left and Centre and they

I'd like to see an example of another crash or missing plane investigation where the airline took on the govt of the country that it's operating in, regardless of who actually owns the airline. Maybe it's happened, somewhere, but I've never seen it and there are obvious reasons why any airline would be very reluctant to do so.

OF course it was significant. Good grief. It's what showed the plane had turned back and flown across the Straits.
It was

Not from the stories I followed at the time. The sequence of events was:
The search area started in the South China Sea, because that is where all normal contact with the plane was suddenly lost. After several days of searching there, Malaysian officials announced that their military radar showed an unknown target that could be MA370 heading across to the Straits. The search moved there on day 4. Thailand continued to say it had no radar contact data. Only 10 days later did Thailand finally say they did have data and by then the search had been going on in the Straits and Indian Ocean for almost a week.
And assuming Malaysians did have the Thai radar data early on, as you claim, what exactly is the rational motive for searching in the wrong place?
The key fact was that MAS being owned

You're assuming that Malaysian airline officials had some Thai radar data that the govt did not. Already discussed why that scenario makes no sense to me. But if you have some credible evidence that shows that, I'd be happy to see it.

Which again they could do with any crash investigation that they control regardless of the carrier.

Well then your logic makes no sense. You said the passengers of the MH17 should take some of the responsibility for the crash because they chose to fly on Malaysian Airlines. The fact that it was MA was purely by chance. It was the fact that it was flying over the Ukraine, in airspace that was open by European authorities, that lead to the crash, not actions by MA that were any different than those of any other airline. At least AFAIK and you've come up with nothing here to refute that. To be responsible and avoid the crash, passengers would have to vette the safety of the flight path of the flights they are going to take.
I focus on is it non stop and

Then you would have avoided the doomed flight by *chance* not by some act of being responsible.

None of which has anything to do with the plane being shot down. Similary, if a BA plane went down, shot out of the sky, would you be saying the passengers on it deserve the blame, they should have been responsible, because you don't like BA? Good grief.
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On Wed, 23 Jul 2014 05:39:57 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

Not the only difference, but really how much do you want me to write about the disgusting Malaysian dictatorship?
One 'party' that wins every 'free' 'election' in 60 years? Please. If they are that good then why don't we just get them to run the world? Most countries don't seem to be happy with what they have. Why not just have the Malaysian system instead? You may not be the only one here who finds the comparison offensive (although I am failing to see anyone rushing to your defence) but (and I am trying to break this gently) you know sometimes crazy despots do take offense to things they don't like being told.
I know many many people who would NOT take offense to what I said. They are mostly* Malaysian.
*For the record every (and I mean EVERY) Indonesian I know would agree with me. I just wish they had the guts to do something about it, and soon.
Let's invade Afghanistan, let's invade Syria, Let's invade Libya, Lets invade Iran, Let's invade Iraq (again) let's invade ...... in order to give them democracy. But let's just conveniently forget about Malaysia.

AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. It is not unusual and does not matter ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? WTFFFFF??????????????????????
I am sorry if I am losing my rag here but (remember to breathe, remember to breathe) after an airline disaster there is something called an air crash investigation. National Geographic have done a pretty good series on it which is available on You Tube if you are interested.
As with all investigations the CRITICAL CRITICAL CRITICAL (did I emphasize critical enough?) thing is INDEPENDENCE. If there is any potential conflict of interest then any investigation results are frankly worthless.
So a Malaysian airliner belonging to the Malaysian Government goes missing and the Malaysian Air craft Investigation (department of Malaysian Government) are charged with investigating.
AND YOU DO NOT THINK THAT MATTERS???????????????????
What ******* planet are you on?

And I know FOR A FACT there is no Malaysian on this earth who is not in the Malaysian Government that would disagree with me on that. In fact most (if not all) of the Malaysian Government would agree with me also but they would probably not want to go public with it. That is why it is better to avoid MAS. With other airlines there is a much better chance that following an incident more information will leak out, despite the Malaysian Government's attempts at stopping it; and hopefully that would lead to more effective corrective action being taken and less likelihood of recurrences.
If you fly MAS then you are trusting your life to an organisation that literally does not care whether you live or die. Particularly if you are of Chinese descent.

tin pot dictatorships like Malaysia. They would no doubt try to reason with the Malaysian ****holes for a while but eventually they would pull the plug if their internal processes were being seriously compromised.

insurance company. All airlines that fly internationally have to have insurance. It is a basic requirement. A requirement of insurance validity is that you tell the truth. If you do not then it is possible (to put it mildly) that your insurance cover goes whoopsy down the toilet.
If any CEO (even in Malaysia) started to tell porkies like the Malaysians then they would run the risk that their insurance would not pay out. One of the potential consequences would be bankruptcy of the airline and prosecution of the staff for false representation.
I am perfectly willing to admit that this is possibly one aspect of the MAS tragedies that actually works in the passengers' favour. Since I assume the insurance was with a Malaysian Government agency and even if the insurance company refuse to pay out the Malaysian Government probably will to save face.
So maybe more likely to die but at least your kids will get an education. Maybe they could use that in their next advertising campaign. I hope I get some royalties. I'm thinking 'we've only just begun' for the music.

OK so I am privy to a little bit more information than you.
I don't think I would be in a rush to accuse Thailand of lying or incompetence. In fact I would congratulate them for kicking Malaysia up the ****. They negotiated with Malaysia for a long time. OK Maybe they left it too long. But at least at the end of the day they did the right thing and it resulted in Malaysia finally coming a little bit cleaner.

the guy that lied his ass off since the beginning?). I have to admit that I do not know the international protocol that is supposed to be followed in such situations. All I have been told is that the Thai Military got sick and tired of trying to deal with the Malaysian Government and told the airline directly.

I have no objective evidence what so ever. Just word of mouth from people at Thai ATC that I have known for a very long time and have learned to trust.

went on behind the scenes meanwhile I am afraid I do not know.
I am not sure what you mean by no blame for Thailand(?). It was a Malaysian aircraft departing from Malaysia and not going to Thailand. (Did it even enter Thai airspace at any point?) Why not blame Myanmar and Vietnam? They probably had some radar data too but were too afraid to stand up and be counted. At least Thailand did something albeit belatedly.
I thought we were discussing why not to fly MAS. Not why to not fly MAS if it's flying anywhere near Thailand. Should we include Madagascar possibly? Mexico? Portugal?

to MAS on the day the aircraft went missing.

government. The airline normally stands back and tells the truth while an independent investigation team try to work out what happened.
Air crash investigators occasionally take on governments (Silk Air 185 comes to mind) but not normally airlines. The airline is just expected to provide all information and tell the truth.
However I think the point you are missing is that when it comes to MAS and Malaysia that is where the whole process breaks down. It is NOT NORMAL. It is a freak airline in a freak jurisdiction and the truth is the last thing that is likely to happen.

they had been forced to reveal it. I expect you also believe it was only carrying Mangosteens.

where exactly? Did they smell of Mangosteens at all?

out what the official story was going to be.

and frankly an attempted manipulation.
I assume a lot.
I assume MAS knew what the cargo was before lying about it.
I assume MAS did not keep quiet for hours after it's disappearance because they were afraid to wake up any babies on board
I assume MAS were furnished with Malaysian Government primary radar data
I assume MAS knew about the Inmarsat data long before the Wall Street Journal confronted them
I assume they knew that the last communication was not the co pilot saying 'all right good night'
All I remember saying was that MAS kept quiet about critical information that was nothing to do with National Security. It was you that assumed everything else and you know what they say about assume - it makes a complete ******* *** out of MAS and the Malaysian Government.
PS regarding the radar data I am not really assuming it. I might not have documented objective evidence but I trust the people that have told me and while that may not hold much sway with you there is no question in my mind that it is factual and I do not consider myself a complete idiot when it comes to talking to people I have been an auditor for more than 30 years and it would take a very fly auditee to get one past me. Not impossible but pretty unlikely IMO.

alone MAS. I have no disagreement with that.
Glad we agree on something at last.

You could very well be correct regarding MH17. But how will we ever reliably know? The data recorders will probably tell us ***BOOM***. When what we really need to know is the exact details of what they did and why they did it. Maybe it was all perfectly innocent and normal and just a tragic event that MAS are in no way responsible for. But as I hope I have explained that would rely on concise, factual, objective, truthful explanations from MAS and the Malaysian Government. But I am afraid if this comes as a shock to you but it really does rain in Indianapolis in the summer time.

Sorry to bother you but would it be possible for you to post a PDF copy to this site or some file sharing sire. Thanks.

not relevant but I always like to give BA and Qantas a dig whenever possible. The reason being that although they are (relatively) safe, they are complete, total and utter ****. I will save my explanation for another thread since I see someone else has asked why I hate them so much.
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On Friday, July 18, 2014 9:18:32 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:

I'd say until we know who exactly was operating the missile system, who gave the order, what the intentions were, it's a bit early to draw comparisons.
One obvious difference already is that the USA quickly admitted that it was the Vincennes that shot it down. We didn't try to claim that the Iranians shot the plane down. And if those intelligence intercepts of communications between the rebels and Russian military are accurate, you also have them realizing they shot down a civilian plane, looking at bodies, and dismissing it, saying "F... them, they were sending us spies...." At this point, we don't know that the intention wasn't to just shoot down *any* plane, without regard to what it actually was.
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nestork wrote:

Like a little kid playing with grown up's toy? Another bottom line, air lines always try to save fuel, take shortest course. Even there was a rumor, pilots get bonus if (s)he saves fuel. If my plane is flying, I'd avoid danger zone at all cost.
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