Wall oven junction box location.

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I am replacing my wife's wall oven with the same size oven. (24 inch). The old oven has been there for at least 12 years.
The directions with the new oven say to put the oven on 2x4 runners. My old oven did not have these. That is no problem. I wonder though if metal stud s would be better to use as runners becasue they are non combustable?
Anyway, the question I have concerns the junction box. My current box is lo cated on the surface of the drywall directly on the back wall off the openi ng and toward the bottom. The directions say, "locate an approved junction box, in the suggested location, a minimum of 23 7/8 above the runners".
My current juntion box is not 23 7/8 above the runners.
My question is this: 1. Why is this a requirement? Does it have to do with heat from the oven or something else?
2. Does this box really need to be moved, and if so what is the best way to do it?
What I dont understand it has on the drawing two pictures of acceptable loc ations for the box. One is up high 23 7/7 above the runners. However, one p icture with no inch markings on it shows a junction box level or below the runners? (It kind of contradicts the obove statement of locating this box " above" the runners.
As always I appreciate the help.
p.s. concernign my previous electrical switch question, I decided to put th e switches back the way they were and to add another outlet properly, by te eing off an existing outlet in the bathroom.
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On Monday, April 1, 2013 9:47:22 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

e old oven has been there for at least 12 years.

ld oven did not have these. That is no problem. I wonder though if metal st uds would be better to use as runners becasue they are non combustable?

located on the surface of the drywall directly on the back wall off the ope ning and toward the bottom. The directions say, "locate an approved junctio n box, in the suggested location, a minimum of 23 7/8 above the runners".

h heat from the oven or something else?

to do it?

ocations for the box. One is up high 23 7/7 above the runners. However, one picture with no inch markings on it shows a junction box level or below th e runners? (It kind of contradicts the obove statement of locating this box "above" the runners.

the switches back the way they were and to add another outlet properly, by teeing off an existing outlet in the bathroom.
Here is a link to the manual for my oven. Page 2 figure 1. (It is a single oven) http://s3.amazonaws.com/szmanuals/8a23f7dc4b1524f9c8c581cc49d48942
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

At first, I thought the purpose of the two possible junction box locations was so that it would be accessible with the oven in place (inside a cabinet), and so it wouldn't be an inaccessible "blind junction box".
But, when I look at the drawings and dimensions, it appears that both suggested locations could still be behind the oven, so I guess my "blind junction box" theory doesn't hold up. I guess it is okay for a junction box to be in a wall behind and appliance, and now that I think about it, I have seen dishwasher junction boxes in the wall behind the dishwasher. That leaves me thinking that maybe they don't want the junction box directly behind the hottest part of the oven and they want it near the top (or higher) or near the bottom (or lower).
As you can see, I don't know the answer. But, if it were me, I think I would just leave the junction box where it is and was all along.
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s

n box

That is how 99% of wall ovens are installed.

I would suspect it's more a matter of the BX type cable coming from the oven having a place to gracefully go without sharp bends.

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On Mon, 1 Apr 2013 07:52:41 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

oven did not have these. That is no problem. I wonder though if metal studs would be better to use as runners becasue they are non combustable?

located on the surface of the drywall directly on the back wall off the opening and toward the bottom. The directions say, "locate an approved junction box, in the suggested location, a minimum of 23 7/8 above the runners".

locations for the box. One is up high 23 7/7 above the runners. However, one picture with no inch markings on it shows a junction box level or below the runners? (It kind of contradicts the obove statement of locating this box "above" the runners.

switches back the way they were and to add another outlet properly, by teeing off an existing outlet in the bathroom.

Looks to me like they are saying that if it isn't 6" below the bottom of the oven then it needs to be 24" above the bottom of the oven. Perhaps they just want it out of the high heat area that's the back of the oven.
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On Monday, April 1, 2013 9:52:41 AM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

The old oven has been there for at least 12 years.

old oven did not have these. That is no problem. I wonder though if metal studs would be better to use as runners becasue they are non combustable?

s located on the surface of the drywall directly on the back wall off the o pening and toward the bottom. The directions say, "locate an approved junct ion box, in the suggested location, a minimum of 23 7/8 above the runners".

ith heat from the oven or something else?

y to do it?

locations for the box. One is up high 23 7/7 above the runners. However, o ne picture with no inch markings on it shows a junction box level or below the runners? (It kind of contradicts the obove statement of locating this b ox "above" the runners.

t the switches back the way they were and to add another outlet properly, b y teeing off an existing outlet in the bathroom.

le oven) http://s3.amazonaws.com/szmanuals/8a23f7dc4b1524f9c8c581cc49d48942
ok. The bottom of the 4 inch junction box is currently mounted approximatel y 3 inches from the plywood base of the cabinet and about 6 inches from the left side of the cabinet. (I have not installed the 2x4's yet) The plywood bottom separates the oven area from the bottom cabinet.
The j box stickes out enough the oven can not slide all the way back. My id ea was to recess the box. However, with a 90 degree nipple coming out of th e cover, it is going to be close as to if the oven will slide all the way b ack.
Moving the box higher would require crawling under the house, cutting the c urrent oven wire, installing a junction box, then fishing wire up into the new location. I am not sure if I can even pull the old wire out of the wall as it is probably stapled I am guess.
Installing into the lower cabinet I would guess would be easier. (If I inst all where the wire runs from the crawlspace to the current location.)
If I can make it work I would rather recess the box where it currently is. I am going to have to find a 90 degree and do some measureing. However, you r concern about the heat Scares me a little. In the location I described, w ould this be an issue? I will say the new oven has alot of vents in the low er back of it. I am thinking they are intake vents but not sure.
I really applogize for the questions but want to make sure it is absolutely right before working on it this weekend. There is a verse in the bible tha t says something to the effect that "there is surety when there are many ad visers". (Or something like that) I guess that is why I ask so many questio ns.)
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On Apr 3, 10:51 am, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

. The old oven has been there for at least 12 years.

My old oven did not have these. That is no problem. I wonder though if meta l studs would be better to use as runners becasue they are non combustable?

is located on the surface of the drywall directly on the back wall off the opening and toward the bottom. The directions say, "locate an approved jun ction box, in the suggested location, a minimum of 23 7/8 above the runners ".

with heat from the oven or something else?

way to do it?

le locations for the box. One is up high 23 7/7 above the runners. However, one picture with no inch markings on it shows a junction box level or belo w the runners? (It kind of contradicts the obove statement of locating this box "above" the runners.

put the switches back the way they were and to add another outlet properly, by teeing off an existing outlet in the bathroom.

single oven)http://s3.amazonaws.com/szmanuals/8a23f7dc4b1524f9c8c581cc49d48 942

ely 3 inches from the plywood base of the cabinet and about 6 inches from t he left side of the cabinet. (I have not installed the 2x4's yet) The plywo od bottom separates the oven area from the bottom cabinet.
I presume you would use the 2 x 4 so that they sit with 4" dimension up, as in the install pic. If so, that gives you 3 1/2". Is there enough room to go with runners that are actually 4"? If so, then you have room for a 4" box in the runner area below the oven. If not, and it were me, and I could not do it any other convenient way, having just 1/2" of the box extending up beyond the bottom of the oven would not stop me from doing it that way. Provided of course it all fits. Surely that small 1/2" overlap isn't going to heat that big metal box up that much more than if it were another 1/2" lower.

idea was to recess the box. However, with a 90 degree nipple coming out of the cover, it is going to be close as to if the oven will slide all the way back.
I believe you said the problem was that it sticks out by just 1/2", no? And I said previously just cut out an opening in the drywall in front of a stud and set the box back by 1/2" The box is almost surely by a stud now, so that should be possible, no? Get a new connector and run the connection to the oven out the SIDE of the box, put a blank cover on it. I did exactly that with mine. With the box sitting on a stud, recessed 1/2" there was enough room for the connector coming out the side.
Or as Bud suggested, you could recess the box all the way in the wall.

current oven wire, installing a junction box, then fishing wire up into th e new location. I am not sure if I can even pull the old wire out of the wa ll as it is probably stapled I am guess.
None of that sounds that difficult to me, if it needs to be done.

stall where the wire runs from the crawlspace to the current location.)
If it's a cabinet, not a drawer, I guess you could put it there.

. I am going to have to find a 90 degree and do some measureing. However, y our concern about the heat Scares me a little. In the location I described, would this be an issue? I will say the new oven has alot of vents in the l ower back of it. I am thinking they are intake vents but not sure.
You also have the option of putting it behind the top of the oven, ie the high spot shown on the install drawing. Did you see my other post? You have an area about 4"+ down from the top of the oven, across the whole back wall where it could go. Of course that would require doing a box/splice in the crawlspace to get the length.
So, I think you're choices are:
A - Runners that are 1/2" higher, box goes completely below oven
B - Use 2 x 4 runners and box goes mostly below oven, with only 1/2" extending beyond bottom of oven
C - Install box in cabinet below oven
D - Do a splice in the crawlspace and a new run up to the high area behind top of oven
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wrote:

h). The old oven has been there for at least 12 years.

. My old oven did not have these. That is no problem. I wonder though if me tal studs would be better to use as runners becasue they are non combustabl e?

ox is located on the surface of the drywall directly on the back wall off t he opening and toward the bottom. The directions say, "locate an approved j unction box, in the suggested location, a minimum of 23 7/8 above the runne rs".

do with heat from the oven or something else?

t way to do it?

able locations for the box. One is up high 23 7/7 above the runners. Howeve r, one picture with no inch markings on it shows a junction box level or be low the runners? (It kind of contradicts the obove statement of locating th is box "above" the runners.

o put the switches back the way they were and to add another outlet properl y, by teeing off an existing outlet in the bathroom.

a single oven)http://s3.amazonaws.com/szmanuals/8a23f7dc4b1524f9c8c581cc49d 48942

ately 3 inches from the plywood base of the cabinet and about 6 inches from the left side of the cabinet. (I have not installed the 2x4's yet) The ply wood bottom separates the oven area from the bottom cabinet.

y idea was to recess the box. However, with a 90 degree nipple coming out o f the cover, it is going to be close as to if the oven will slide all the w ay back.

he current oven wire, installing a junction box, then fishing wire up into the new location. I am not sure if I can even pull the old wire out of the wall as it is probably stapled I am guess.

install where the wire runs from the crawlspace to the current location.)

is. I am going to have to find a 90 degree and do some measureing. However, your concern about the heat Scares me a little. In the location I describe d, would this be an issue? I will say the new oven has alot of vents in the lower back of it. I am thinking they are intake vents but not sure.

I think it was just stated that the 2 x 4 runners have to go laying flat. That eliminates options A and B. So to make it compliant with the install instructions, you're left with C and D. The other option that doesn't follow the instructions would be to recess the box in the wall and have most of the box be in the area directly behind, where it's not supposed to be. That would be my last choice and if I did it that way, I'd locate the box at the bottom so about half of it is below the oven. With a metal box in the wall and only half of it behind the very lower part of the oven, I would not think it could get hot enough that it would be a problem. The conductors they are supplying inside the flexible metal conduit, which it has, right?, are probably rated for the higher temps behind an oven. That cable is going to be directly behind the oven, where they don't want the box to be. They may be concerned that some older cables that serve the junction box may not be rated for the temps that could occur. But it would seem to me that with the box recessed in the wall, it's already about 2" away from the back of the oven. And the metal box will dissipated heat into the wall cavity. So, in my view, it's not a problem. But then I didn't design the thing either and have no idea how hot it actually gets back there. You could temporarily hook it up, fire it up, and see.
If you had caught this before you bought the oven, I'm sure you could find one from another manufacturer that has more flexible box locations. But you wouldn't even know where the existing box is until you pull out the old oven.....
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wrote:

nch). The old oven has been there for at least 12 years.

rs. My old oven did not have these. That is no problem. I wonder though if metal studs would be better to use as runners becasue they are non combusta ble?

box is located on the surface of the drywall directly on the back wall off the opening and toward the bottom. The directions say, "locate an approved junction box, in the suggested location, a minimum of 23 7/8 above the run ners".

o do with heat from the oven or something else?

est way to do it?

ptable locations for the box. One is up high 23 7/7 above the runners. Howe ver, one picture with no inch markings on it shows a junction box level or below the runners? (It kind of contradicts the obove statement of locating this box "above" the runners.

to put the switches back the way they were and to add another outlet prope rly, by teeing off an existing outlet in the bathroom.

s a single oven)http://s3.amazonaws.com/szmanuals/8a23f7dc4b1524f9c8c581cc4 9d48942

imately 3 inches from the plywood base of the cabinet and about 6 inches fr om the left side of the cabinet. (I have not installed the 2x4's yet) The p lywood bottom separates the oven area from the bottom cabinet.

My idea was to recess the box. However, with a 90 degree nipple coming out of the cover, it is going to be close as to if the oven will slide all the way back.

the current oven wire, installing a junction box, then fishing wire up int o the new location. I am not sure if I can even pull the old wire out of th e wall as it is probably stapled I am guess.

I install where the wire runs from the crawlspace to the current location.)

y is. I am going to have to find a 90 degree and do some measureing. Howeve r, your concern about the heat Scares me a little. In the location I descri bed, would this be an issue? I will say the new oven has alot of vents in t he lower back of it. I am thinking they are intake vents but not sure.

BTW, did you see this in the instructions:
"NOTE TO ELECTRICIAN: The three power leads supplied with this appliance are U.L. recognized for connection to larger gauge household wiring. The insulation of these three leads is rated at temperatures much higher than the temperature rating of household wiring. The current carrying capacity of a conductor is governed by the temperature rating of the insulation around the wire rather than the wire gauge alone."
So, it's as I thought. The wires from the oven to the junction box are rated for higher temperature than the typical romex or similar that you would typically have going to the box. So, it looks like while it's OK for the flex conduit they supply to be directly behind the oven, they are concerned with the wiring in the junction box being exposed to the higher temps directly behind the oven. And I think they are being conservative, because there is everything from new romex to cloth covered stuff from 50 years ago and they don't know what you have.
So, I guess you are left with two options to do it by the book, high or low.
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On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:20:41 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

My old oven did not have these. That is no problem. I wonder though if metal studs would be better to use as runners becasue they are non combustable?

is located on the surface of the drywall directly on the back wall off the opening and toward the bottom. The directions say, "locate an approved junction box, in the suggested location, a minimum of 23 7/8 above the runners".

acceptable locations for the box. One is up high 23 7/7 above the runners. However, one picture with no inch markings on it shows a junction box level or below the runners? (It kind of contradicts the obove statement of locating this box "above" the runners.

put the switches back the way they were and to add another outlet properly, by teeing off an existing outlet in the bathroom.

approximately 3 inches from the plywood base of the cabinet and about 6 inches from the left side of the cabinet. (I have not installed the 2x4's yet) The plywood bottom separates the oven area from the bottom cabinet.

idea was to recess the box. However, with a 90 degree nipple coming out of the cover, it is going to be close as to if the oven will slide all the way back.

current oven wire, installing a junction box, then fishing wire up into the new location. I am not sure if I can even pull the old wire out of the wall as it is probably stapled I am guess.

is. I am going to have to find a 90 degree and do some measureing. However, your concern about the heat Scares me a little. In the location I described, would this be an issue? I will say the new oven has alot of vents in the lower back of it. I am thinking they are intake vents but not sure.

That's not how I read that at all. To me (the hint is the comparison to household wiring *SIZE*) it's a notice that "these wires are smaller than what an electrician would wire the house for, but that's OK, they're engineered that way."

I don't agree with your assumption, thus the conclusion is suspect.

I wouldn't pull new wire to do it.
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On Apr 3, 3:58 pm, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

:
te:

4 inch). The old oven has been there for at least 12 years.

nners. My old oven did not have these. That is no problem. I wonder though if metal studs would be better to use as runners becasue they are non combu stable?

ent box is located on the surface of the drywall directly on the back wall off the opening and toward the bottom. The directions say, "locate an appro ved junction box, in the suggested location, a minimum of 23 7/8 above the runners".

e to do with heat from the oven or something else?

e best way to do it?

cceptable locations for the box. One is up high 23 7/7 above the runners. H owever, one picture with no inch markings on it shows a junction box level or below the runners? (It kind of contradicts the obove statement of locati ng this box "above" the runners.

ded to put the switches back the way they were and to add another outlet pr operly, by teeing off an existing outlet in the bathroom.

t is a single oven)http://s3.amazonaws.com/szmanuals/8a23f7dc4b1524f9c8c581 cc49d48942

roximately 3 inches from the plywood base of the cabinet and about 6 inches from the left side of the cabinet. (I have not installed the 2x4's yet) Th e plywood bottom separates the oven area from the bottom cabinet.

.

ck. My idea was to recess the box. However, with a 90 degree nipple coming out of the cover, it is going to be close as to if the oven will slide all the way back.

ing the current oven wire, installing a junction box, then fishing wire up into the new location. I am not sure if I can even pull the old wire out of the wall as it is probably stapled I am guess.

If I install where the wire runs from the crawlspace to the current locatio n.)

ntly is. I am going to have to find a 90 degree and do some measureing. How ever, your concern about the heat Scares me a little. In the location I des cribed, would this be an issue? I will say the new oven has alot of vents i n the lower back of it. I am thinking they are intake vents but not sure.

If it's not that they want the junction box out of the hot areas of the oven, then why are the two permissible locations for the box either:
A - 5" or more below the bottom of the oven
B - Either in the top 4" area of the oven or higher
Both of those avoid the hot part of the oven. If it's not that then why not just spec that you can put the junction box anywhere behind it?
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On Wed, 3 Apr 2013 13:29:32 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

runners. My old oven did not have these. That is no problem. I wonder though if metal studs would be better to use as runners becasue they are non combustable?

box is located on the surface of the drywall directly on the back wall off the opening and toward the bottom. The directions say, "locate an approved junction box, in the suggested location, a minimum of 23 7/8 above the runners".

acceptable locations for the box. One is up high 23 7/7 above the runners. However, one picture with no inch markings on it shows a junction box level or below the runners? (It kind of contradicts the obove statement of locating this box "above" the runners.

to put the switches back the way they were and to add another outlet properly, by teeing off an existing outlet in the bathroom.

approximately 3 inches from the plywood base of the cabinet and about 6 inches from the left side of the cabinet. (I have not installed the 2x4's yet) The plywood bottom separates the oven area from the bottom cabinet.

My idea was to recess the box. However, with a 90 degree nipple coming out of the cover, it is going to be close as to if the oven will slide all the way back.

the current oven wire, installing a junction box, then fishing wire up into the new location. I am not sure if I can even pull the old wire out of the wall as it is probably stapled I am guess.

is. I am going to have to find a 90 degree and do some measureing. However, your concern about the heat Scares me a little. In the location I described, would this be an issue? I will say the new oven has alot of vents in the lower back of it. I am thinking they are intake vents but not sure.

To eliminate interference, perhaps. The text you posted certainly doesn't make that case.

The whole back of the oven is going to get hot. Nothing is touching and convection will get everything warm.
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On Apr 3, 6:48 pm, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote>

What "interference" would require that the junction box be 5" min BELOW the bottom of the oven, where the oven doesn't even go? Answer: none

The area 5"+ below the oven, which is one junction box location isn't going to get anywhere near as hot as directly behind the oven. And the upper 4" area, the other specified location isn't going to get nearly as hot either. That upper area is where the electronic are. It's well above the hottest part of the oven and that electronics section typically has a fan to keep it cool.
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On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:12:05 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

I don't know what the back of the oven looks like. Do you?

THe one above is going to get just as hot. You keep ignoring the fact that the piece you quoted doesn't say what you think it says.
Usual Trader bullshit argument continues...
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On Apr 4, 12:20 pm, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Usual krw getting nasty and starting with the insults noted. The area where the electronics is, at the top of the stove typically has a fan to blow air through it. Why would you expect the area behind the electronics/display, etc to be as hot as that directly behind the oven itself? I had my double oven connected temporarily before I installed it and the metal in the oven area, back, sides, is so hot you could burn yourself. And that was with just a cook cycle, not with a clean cycle that gets twice as hot. The metal at the top was much cooler.
What you keep ignoring is that you have no alternate explanation for the specific box locations called out. The one you offered, "interference" well, now that you want to get nasty, that is about as dumb as dumb gets. If the box were just barely below the bottom of the cavity there obviously would be no interference. The oven would slide right in. Yet the manufacturer says to locate it MINIMUM 5" BELOW the bottom. I can't say for sure the reason is heat, but others here have offered that as a possible explanation and so far it's the only thing I've heard that makes sense.
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On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 09:49:49 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Bullshit, Trader. You're already well on your way.

Good grief! Heat rises. It's *trapped* behind the cabinetry. If it's going to get hot directly behind the oven, it will also get hot 5" above that spot.

You don't either! You're *GUESSING* that the issue is heat because the phrase "high temperature insulation" was used to justify smaller gauge wire. *Read* what *YOU* posted, Trader! <good grief!>
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On Apr 4, 12:59 pm, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

t

Everyone can note who got nasty here first. As usual, it was you. And there are plenty of regulars here who know your style too.
You get caught in something dumb. Then, instead of just saying "Oh, you're right", you start with the insults. In this case, you claimed the locatins given could be due to interference. Interference, really? They give a location that is a minimum of 5" below the bottom of the freaking oven. 5" below where the oven doesn't even go. Now thinking that is interference, well that is indeed dumb.

So, following that faulty logic, if I take an electric heating element and put it inside a cabinet, it's going to be just as hot at the the top of the cabinet as it is directly in front of the heater? You can't possibly be that stupid.
 If

I don't have an alternate explanation. I just have the heat explanation as a possibility. That was also offered by others here, not just me.
 You're *GUESSING* that the issue is heat because

uoted text -

I'm guessing the issue is heat because the specific locations given are away from the hottest areas of the oven. So far the only thing you've offered is "interference" which was so dumb you haven't mentioned it again.
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On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 10:16:14 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

You're full of shit, as usual, Trader.

You're a damned liar, Trader. Your pattern repeats, endlessly.

Ever hear of radiant heat, Trader? I didn't think so. The issues are *VERY* different.

So you made one up out of thin air and continue to espouse it with authority and whine like a damned lefty when called on not being able to read a simple paragraph. That's you in a nutshell.

Bullshit.
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On Apr 4, 6:22 pm, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote>

What lie have I told here? You're just pissed because you made the dumb "interference" claim. A claim that is obviously dumb, because there would be no need to have the box 5"+ BELOW the bottom of the oven. Just having it 1/8" below would put interference out of the question. But you're obviously math challenged.

e

No, they are exactly the same. Heat radiates from the back of the oven to whatever is behind it. Like the electrical box, if it happens to be there. There is more heat directly behind the ovens to radiate, to conduct if it's actually touching the box, and to convect to it. There is less of that heat at the top of the oven in the last 4+ inches, where the electronics are located. They also have FANS there to take away the heat. Think man!

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And now following the usual process, you start with the "lefty" remarks. I didn't make anything up out of thin air. In fact, I'm not even the one who first suggested that the box mounting locations may have been chosen by the oven manufacturer to keep it out of the hottest areas.
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On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 15:34:16 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Quite simple, it was *you* who posted something asinine and are now trying to cover your ass. Indirection works on dummies but it ain't cutting it here.

You're full of shit. Radiation is proportional to temperature. The burner is far hotter than the back of the oven. Good grief, I knew you were illiterate (you proved it in this thread) but I thought you were some sort of engineer. Guess not.

Just stating the facts. You DO act like one.
You made up the entire bullshit about temperature from the paragraph about wiring insulation ratings and wire ampacity. Keep up the indirection, I'm laughing harder with every post.
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