Use old breaker panel as junction box?

[rangerssuck]

I'm going to upgrade my electrical service from 100A to 200A. New meter, new panel and all that. What I want to know is wheter I can leave the old breaker panel on the wall with the new one mounted next to it, using the old one as a junction box so I don't have to move all those wires (which will inevitably be too short) to the new box.

This way, I could put a couple of pieces of pipe between the two panels and wire nut extensions to each wire in the old panel to bring it over to the new,

Is this kosher? Would I also pull out all the bus bars from the old box? Do I have to screw its cover closed?

There will be a licensed electrician and permits for this work, but I'm looking to do a bunch of the grunt work myself to save a few bucks and maybe learn something along the way,

[krw]

You could leave the old box as a sub panel for the new. At least some of the circuits could be left in the old.

[RBM]

Ultimately it will be up to the inspector, but it is often done, and yes you would gut the panel and screw the door closed.

[Evan]

What is the point of doing that ?

For a couple of spools of wire in various colors and wire gauge sizes, the OP can have all of the circuits fed from the new panel...

Most of the circuits in the old panel will be run using #14 or #12 wire, with a few using larger size wire for major appliances... Running the existing panel as a sub panel would require moving some of those loads and running a new feeder for the sub-panel... Much easier to just use the old panel as a junction box and be done with it...

[krw]

No need to move every circuit. No need to splice wires that are too short to make it to the new box.

I know you can't read, but he's trying to save the electrician's labor.

Moving circuits takes the electrician time.

[aemeijers]

That is exactly what previous owner did in this place. The addition required moving service and a service upgrade, so rather than re-pull all the old circuits, they gutted the panel and used it as a giant J-box. Didn't do a real clean job, and it is on my list to open it up and check it out one of these days. New panel has an 'installed by, and in case of problems call' sticker from a local 'real' electrician company, so presumably it is kosher. But they just taped over the old breaker holes inside the door, and didn't put in blank covers or screw it shut or anything, so I at least want to take care of that before I put the house up for sale in 2-3 years. No idea if the removed the old buss bars, but the new connections are floating in space so presumably they aren't connected to anything. (I peeled tape loose on one corner, and peeked in with a flashlight. I shuddered, and closed it back up.) Old and new panels are about 8 feet apart.

If you go this way, recommend dressing the old panel real well so it doesn't look like a rat's nest like mine does. Label the runs with breaker number for new panel, and maybe leave a typed printout inside the door for the poor SOB 20 years from now trying to figure it out. And find plugs for the old breaker holes, or screw the door shut.

[John Grabowski]

*It's been done, however that old panel is not an approved junction box. You would need to remove the guts and plug any holes and the cover would have to be screwed shut. I would talk to the electrical inspector to see if he would allow that. I think it would be much neater looking to just swing all of the old wires into the new panel.

[Bill Gill]

One more vote for doing it your way. That is what the electricians did when I upgraded. They stripped all the old stuff out, then ran new cables to the new box and wire nutted them together. After that they screwed the old box shut and marked the door that there were no user serviceable parts inside. The inspector here was happy with the job.

Bill

[jamesgangnc]

Many times they are too short.

If they come from all directions I would reroute the ones I could straight to the new box. Otherwsie I'd do the same thing.

[RBM]

I agree, but John Grabowski's point, that it's not an approved junction box, is the gray area, and why I would check with the inspector.

[JIMMIE]

I did it and the inspector made me remove the existing front and replace it with a solid piece of metal. No biggy I just used the old front as a template.

Jimmie

[clare]

My read on it is if the wires are too short to reach in the new panel it can be a LOT of work - so using the existing banel as a junction reduces that work considerably. Using it as a sub panel does not solve the "likely" problem that caused him to consider replacing the panel - either fuses or old breakers and possibly deteriorating panel condition.

If the wires are not too short, and are in good condition, moving all the circuits from the old panel to the new is ONLY a couple hours work, max. Last one I did was only about 2 hours total - most of it in the dark, all of it in the cold, with the service live. Electric heat and all.

[jamesgangnc]

You strip everything out but the metal box. The metal box is not what gets old and deteriorated.

[Evan]

Agreed, it takes time when you have the electrician MOVE the actual wire for each circuit from the old panel enclosure to the new one IF IT WILL REACH...

Popping wire nuts on each conductor and extending a circuit to the new panel in a large diameter segment of conduit that runs from the old panel to the new panel won't take as long as you think...

The wiring runs in the old installation to the old panel are fine if you don't start messing with them, you have no idea what will happen to older wiring when you start bending it in a new way to route it to the new panel...

As long as you have the required conductor length inside the old panel (you will find you have more than plenty as minimum) you can use it as a junction box after you gut the panel and remove all the old fuses/circuit breakers and all the busbars...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

Or you could buy a piece of sheet metal of the correct thickness and cut it to the correct dimensions and shape to properly seal the front of the old panel, drill cover plate screw holes in the right places, paint it a color which won't be out of place and install...

How nicely do you want it dressed ? It is a junction box, not a service panel... Unless something serious happens no one should ever have to open it again...

~~ Evan

[Evan]

True most of the time... I guess you have never seen a panel that has been corroded by exposure to an excessively moist basement...

If the panel enclosure is stable and not corroded it can be used as a junction box, just ask the inspector what sort of covering they want to enclose the front...

~~ Evan

[DerbyDad03]

st some of the

re: "I guess you have never seen a panel that has been corroded by exposure to an excessively moist basement"

..or by water that found it's way into the panel via the service wire.

Water was getting inside the insulation of the main at the bugs and finding it's way into the box, dripping in right above the main breaker. Even though the service wire did have a few "uphills" along the run, the water made it through anyway.

The quick fix - before the service was eventually replaced - was a very small slit in the covering of the service wire at it's lowest point, which was just below the meter. When the homeowner slit the jacket, water dripped out for a few minutes and then stopped. It was a year before he had it replaced and he never got another drop in the breaker box after the slit was made.

[John Gilmer]

In most places the "sub" has to separate neutral from ground.

When all is done and said, it may be more trouble than it's worth.

The best solution is to entirely remove the old panel and plop the new panel in the same place. You might want to look at several panels to find one that best approximates the location of the feed wires and the loads used in the existing box.

The odds are that the electrician will not have to use any "wire stretching" techniques.

[rangerssuck]

OK. I spoke with the local electrical inspector and he said that even though it's not his favorite way to do this, when he was a contractor he did it all the time. Just make sure you screw the door closed. The fact is that if I don't use the big box as a junction box, I'd have to mount a bunch of other boxes anyway since most of the wires are way too short to make it to the new panel.

The bottom line is, it's OK with him, and it will save a bunch of time & money.

[clare]

I know that. But using it as a SUB PANEL, as suggested, does NOT involve stripping it out. I thought It was pretty dang clear what I was saying ---