USA normalizes relations with Cuba

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On Thursday, December 18, 2014 3:17:11 AM UTC-5, nestork wrote:

It was dead in 1960, a failure even then, but the corpse lives on. Try telling the Castros, that run the place that communism is dead. The govt still owns virtually all the businesses and property.

A lot of people undestood that in 1960 too, like all the folks who had their wealth confiscated, their businesses taken away, their relatives shot. A lot of people understood it in the half a century since, when they fled here, risking their lives to escape. The problem is, the Castros are still the dictators running the place and they don't understand that and haven't changed much.

You're preaching to the choir with that last part. Unfortunately the apes running Cuba don't agree with you.
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wrote:

My understanding is the vintage are legally called national treasures or some such and can't be exported. Sorry. Although there was a story a few years back about a Cuban group who sailed a mid-50s Chevy to the Keys.
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On 12/18/2014 05:16 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

I am sure that enterprising Americans and Cubans will soon figure out how to make deals on the vintage cars.
The US should have normalized relations with Cuba years ago. We have already normalized relations with much nastier places and besides...the best way to decimate the Communist philosophy is to just plain do business with such countries.
Now, if Obama had any guts at all he should tell Saudia Arabia to go fuck itself.
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On Thursday, December 18, 2014 7:40:06 AM UTC-5, philo  wrote:

The first problem with all that is that under US law such commerce is illegal. Nothing Obama just said or did changes that, which would require Congress changing the law. What do you think the odds of that happening are? Even major Democrats are pissing all over what Obama just did.

I'm all for it, as soon as Cuba repays the USA for the value of all the property they nationalized and stole, adjusted for inflation of course. That should take about a century. And as soon as they agree to return the cop killing fugitive Joanne Chesimard, who's living down there, having fled there when she escaped prison here. Get a few things like that from them, some real movement on human rights, *then* I'd be in favor of it.
But we have Obama as our negotiator, who's desperate in the last two years to come up with anything that can divert attention from all his screw ups. Even outside the desperation, it's obvious he's totally incompetent as a negotiator. Look at how Putin rolled him, years ago. If Obama had to buy a new car and the seller said they wanted $25K, he'd ask, "but would you take $30k?" So now it's the brothers Castro turn.

Yes, that would be a brilliant idea. Screw up relations with one of the remaining US friendly countries in the region and a major oil exporter. Let's destabilize them too, so ISIS and the like can take that over.
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On 12/18/2014 06:58 AM, trader_4 wrote:

Legal or not, I know damned well those vintage cars and cigars are going to be coming to the US.

Of course Cuba is not going to pay for that, they don't have any money. The amount is a pittance compared to what the US pisses away elsewhere. If I lend money out to someone I later realize is not going to pay me back...I just forget about it an move on. My mental health is way more important that worrying about a few dollars.

Let's face it. How many presidents have /not/ been screw-ups?

Saudia Arabia is where Osama Bin Laden came from...those kind of friends we don't need. Fifteen of the 19 hijackers were Saudis. Like I said "Fuck em"
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On Thursday, December 18, 2014 8:11:17 AM UTC-5, philo  wrote:

You know of any cars that came here in the last 50? Nothing that just happened changes that. Cigars, some have come here in small quantities, illegally. That will likely continue and I think Obama announced a change that says *visitors* to Cuba can bring back some small quantities for their personal use with them. But given that it's small amounts and that general tourist travel is still banned, I don't see where the new cigars or cars are coming from.

What the US pisses away is irrelevant if you were an American citizen or business and had your property stolen. Or if you were a Cuban citizen and you had your property stolen.

The money was not lent. It was assets stolen. It's like you buying a car, then someone coming and stealing it.

I can think of plenty. I've never seen one as bad as Obama. Everyday it's a new insult. Want the latest? Michelle gave an interview to People, where they talk about how hard it is to be black, how we're all basically a bunch of racists. Michelle cites as an example how when she went shopping at Target, a woman came up to her and asked her to get something down from a shelf for her. That's racism? That's treating blacks poorly, differently? That hasn't happened to you, where someone can't reach something and asks you, another customer, to help?
Oh, but it gets much better. Turns out she was on with Letterman a couple years ago. She told him about the same event. How she went shopping in Target, dressed like a typical shopper, how she was alone in the detergent aisle. A woman came up to here and said "You're very tall, would you mind getting that detergent up there for me?" And after she did, the woman joked, "you didn't have to make it look so easy". Michelle told Letterman it "felt good", ie not being recognized as first lady, being an ordinary shopper. She was smiling, laughing, the whole time.
And now because it suits their purpose, their BS narative, she tries to turn that into mistreatment of blacks, playing the race card. Just despicable.

Following that logic, if some American terrorist winds up committing a terrorist act in the UK, then the UK should tell us the same thing.
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This is an interesting test of the cost system of the current manufacturing economy. So far as manufactures are now (1) bar-coded and (2) delivered in bulk in standard shipping containers, does distance cost anything any more? We may discover that goods from (say) Malaysia are cheaper than the same goods from Cuba (cf. the capital cost of infrastructure for Cuba to assemble raw materials etc.)
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On Thursday, December 18, 2014 9:34:02 AM UTC-5, Don Phillipson wrote:

Haiti is located very much closer to the USA than China. Are they a manufacturing powerhouse? You don't go from 50's Chevy's to an industrial might in a few years, or even a few decades. Not that there is anything so far that would even allow it to begin. Some folks here obviously haven't read what Obama really did. Besides opening an embassy, it ain't much. And to do more is going to require Congress, which isn't likely to happen anytime soon.
Also note that Cuba's problems are it's own making. Sure, trade with the USA would be a big boost. But they've had 50 years in which to cultivate other markets. They could be developing trade with countries anywhere. China keeps coming up. China figured out how to engage with markets all over the world. The problem with Cuba is it has been and still is screwed up by self-inflicted wounds. The only thing they could cultivate was a dependency of the former Soviet Union to keep them going.
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On Thu, 18 Dec 2014 09:09:03 -0500, Stormin Mormon

    Amazing that with all that suffering, their health stats are so much better than the USA's. They must be blessed by goD, or something.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate     (kicks ass)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy     (a draw)
    Or maybe someone needs to grow a brain, and throw out all that old McCarthy propaganda. It went moldy ages ago.     []'s
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On 12/18/2014 9:57 AM, Shadow wrote:

comparable across countries; while the WHO recommendation is that all children who show signs of life should be recorded as live births, in many countries this standard is not followed, artificially lowering their infant mortality rates relative to countries which follow those standards.
If the McCarthy stuff is so wrong, why do Cubans try to get to the US on boats, but we've not had many US try to go to Cuba?
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On Thursday, December 18, 2014 9:58:59 AM UTC-5, Shadow wrote:

Their life expectancy, per your own source, isn't so much better than the USA. It's actually a tad lower. Still it's a valid point, they are about the same as the USA.
The infant mortality numbers, I think you have to look beyond the raw numbers. All you have is the reported deaths per 1000 live births. Given that the USA has some of the most advanced means available to allow children to be born alive that would not have made it in many other countries, that has to be factored in. Meaning that in Cuba, if you have a pregnancy that goes wrong, it may very well end there, with no live birth to record. In the USA it could result in a live birth, of an infant with the resulting complications, with the infant dying weeks later, increasing the USA infant mortality.
I also would not trust numbers from a dictatorship, run by commies, where there is no freedom of press and where anyone that dares question the govt winds up in jail or dead. All commies lie. Even alleged ex-commies, like Putin, still have it in their blood.
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I believe that:
1. The US government and the US people all realize that trade sanctions against Cuba haven't worked to bring about a change in leadership, and probably never will.
2. The Cuban government and the Cuban people all realize that the communist system put in place by Castro hasn't created a better life for the Cuban people as it was intended to, and probably never will.
I expect that the communist system in Cuba will follow much the same path as that of China where the government remains officially communist, but the economy is purely capitalist and everyone is free to do as they please to fill their own rice bowl with as much rice as they can.
I can see a powerful economic partnership developing between the USA and Cuba. Cubans, getting paid $2 $US per month, can produce as high quality goods in US owned factories as Chinese workers getting paid $20 $US per month, and I can see that shaking up the economic interdependance that currently exists between the USA and China. I can easily see Cuba becoming the next world manufacturing center, competing with the likes of China and Malaysia. Only, Cuba has a much nicer climate and much nicer beaches than China or Malaysia.
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On 12/18/2014 11:56 AM, nestork wrote:

Yep, I agree.
Cuba is not a threat to us.
No one in the US has ever properly addressed North Korea or anything in the Mid-East to any degree of satisfaction.
Two HUGE elephants in the room and now there are bound to be some pissing and moaning about (the non-problem) Cuba.
BTW:
I've been to London a few times and got some Cuban cigars there.
I'm not a smoker but occasionally I enjoy a good cigar.
Just had to see what the big deal was. Personally I preferred Jamaican cigars...but again...I am not a smoker so who am I to judge?
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On 12/18/2014 1:32 PM, philo wrote:

I'm not an elephant, but occasionally I swing my trunk, and make elephant noises.
You really think we believe you're not a smoker? You contradict yourself.
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obama phones? :)

There were quite a number at one time (via airplane hijacking), that's why we have airport security. Other than that, there is no way to go...we in the land of the free are not permitted to go.
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Yeah, I understand that Meyer Lansky was livid.
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On 12/18/2014 03:00 PM, dadiOH wrote:

+1
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wrote:

    He and the mob controlled Cuba and all the girls there (including the tiny underage ones). But it was a dictatorship back then, and everyone was "owned" by Batista and his gang of thugs. Cuba's main cash products were prostitution and gambling, NOT sugar, rum and cigars.     Funny how these things are forgotten.     []'s     
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On Thu, 18 Dec 2014 10:05:23 -0500, Stormin Mormon

    Same reason Brazilians used to save for years to go to the US, then come back when they realized life is easier here. Propaganda. All our main newspapers, radios and TVs are American owned. We were fed the story that all Americans made millions of dollars a year, hardly worked at all, and had amazing toys. Internet killed all that. Very few people emigrate now, and if they do, it's to hide dirty money. (See Jose Serra, Fernando Henrique Cardoso, Aecio Neves, Marina Silva, Joaquim Barbosa, Gilmar Mendes, Daniel Dantas (the TrueCrypt guy) and countless other criminals that have illegal accounts there).

    From what I heard, that's illegal. You will get shot by the coastguard. The American defense system is quite efficient.     []'s
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On Thursday, December 18, 2014 5:54:43 PM UTC-5, Shadow wrote:

I see, so you think life in Cuba is better than in the USA. That's easily proven wrong by international media, not just the US media and facts.
All

I would love to see a cite for that. I say you're lying.
We were fed

emigration <> having assets invested in the USA
And what exactly would the purpose of this alleged USA propaganda campaign be? To encourage Brazil to move here? Good grief.

Total nonsense. Americans are visiting Cuba regularly, illegally, and no one is shooting them. And almost all of them get away with it, without being prosecuted. You just travel to another country first, then to Cuba. Cuba doesn't stamp US passports, it's very unlikely you'd get caught by the USA. And that's people who actually return here. If you went to Cuba permanently, you'd be beyond the reach of US law. Just ask Joanne Chesimard, a cop killer, for one. So, if you want to flee the USA, go to Cuba for good, nothing is stopping you. The reason why people don't is obvious to even a blind squirrel. Are you smarter than a squirrel?
Perhaps you'd like to share some cites of the US Coast Guard gunning down people on their way to Cuba, or anywhere else. I can give you examples of Cuba killing Americans in international waters, executing political opponents, throwing people in jail for long terms for their politics, etc.
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