UPS Fraud in Furnace Parts

[Sawney Beane]

You seem to have difficulty reading. If I'm any judge of character it's because your mind is chock full of pure knowledge.

I told the service man what the problem was. He asked me how I knew. I told him about the thumb on the transformer. He told me I was right.

The service man told me he'd have to order it and his price would probably be a lot higher than what I'd found.

I called him early on a Wednesday afternoon. He worked me in about the middle of the next morning.

It was hilarious. My neighbor's air had gone out Sunday. He'd called Monday. The reason the service man got to me in less than

24 hours was that he had to come to the neighborhood anyway, for my neighbor, who had called 72 hours ago.

He came to my house first! My neighbor didn't think that was fair. Then we shot the breeze half an hour as my neighbor paced his yard across the street. Then the service man drove off without stopping at my neighbor's! Eventually he came back and told my neighbor it would cost him $8,000 and he couldn't get to it for a few days.

My neighbor was already pretty mad, so I lied. I told him the service man had fixed mine and the temperature in my house was so low I had to wipe condensation from the outside of my windows to see out.

I used to have it serviced. I'd paid $300 for a new board in 1992 and again in 1995. When the board failed in 1998, I realized if I wanted it done right, I'd better do it myself.

I could see that the factory service center had used zinc chloride when they replaced the SCR. They hadn't washed it off. It had drawn moisture from the humid air, which created acid, which ate the traces. I was amazed at the cascade effect of the malfunction: SCR, relay, rectifiers, snap diodes, a 32-pin DIP IC, and stuff I don't remember.

The manufacturer treated the schematic as a secret, but as you probably know, you can go online to get the specs for the components, then use a dual-trace scope to find the problems. My repair certainly outlasted the factory repairs for 1/10 the cash outlay.

I live in a town where people haven't had good experiences with HVAC service.

I think you're a winner, too! If I'm any judge of character, your contempt comes from having to deal with people who know much less than you. I'll bet you do first-rate work. If you would post your phone number, I could recommend you to my neighbors.

[Sawney Beane]

Suppose he normally buys them for $24 and sells them for $30. Suppose he sells five a week, among 150 packages of various items, each with a $6 markup. That's $900 a week for pay and overhead. It's $30 from this item and $870 from the 145 other packages.

Suppose somebody at the Norton factory will sell him 50 QC rejects with hairline cracks for $2 apiece. Suppose he has a sale at $26. Online shoppers choose him and sales rise to 10 a day. Now the markup is 10 x 24 x 5 or $1200 per week for that one item. $1170 of it is an increase in his profit.

If the customer thinks it's not the vendor's fault because it was inspected and well packed, each customer immediately orders a replacement. This time a good one is sent. That's 50 a week at $6 markup adding another $300. In one week the dealer's profit increases $1470 from selling 50 rejects.

He shipped 245 packages, of which 50 contained rejects. So well packaged, perhaps 49 arrive in one piece. Nothing on his website said they were fragile, and the warning note was tucked out of sight. The only thing that alerted me was the unexpected FRAGILE stickers on the package. If it breaks during installation or in use, the customer will probably blame himself. After all, the warning said the absence of visible breaks was supposed to prove there was nothing wrong.

Out of the 50, suppose 3 call UPS. That's about 1% of the volume the vender shipped that week. The vender increased his profit by $1470, but will UPS investigate?

The day I received the defective item, I told the vendor I could buy one locally and I notified UPS. The vendor later asked if I'd filed a claim. I said yes, but he didn't offer a refund.

So far he has not charged my card for the replacement I had asked him repeatedly not to send. I suppose UPS has paid him for my claim, and he finds it more profitable to send me something I don't want than to refund my payment.

[Sawney Beane]

I'm not about to open that box to see if he decided to send me a good one this time. I have confidence in the one I am using because I bought it elsewhere and installed it myself. If I were curious, I could check the current now and again in a month. I believe cracking is progressive and would reduce the draw over time.

The one I got had apparently come from the factory packed in foam rubber. I hadn't subjected it to stress or shock.

Doesn't the heating come from the resistance of the silicon carbide? Above, Terry gave the link to a manufacturer who says it's a myth that oil from the skin will harm an ignitor.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

That is an awful lot of "supposes" on your part. You'd make a better fiction writher than heater service tech. you should be careful that none of your fantasies become a libel situation. Norton has lots of money for lawyers

[CBHVAC]

This post, with trace and headers, sent to appropriate folks...

[Bob]

Ah! the mouth matches the name so well.

Bob

[trader4]

"He shipped 245 packages, of which 50 contained rejects. Out of the

50, suppose 3 call UPS. That's about 1% of the volume the vender shipped that week. The vender increased his profit by $1470, but will UPS investigate? "

He ships 50 units that don't work and you expect only 3 will result in a damage claim to UPS? You whole original post was centered on this being a UPS scam, based on the shipment being labled fragile and that the vendor took other steps to strongly suggest these items could be easily damaged in shipping. For that scam to work, UPS must pay off on a shipping claim. And if a vendor sends out 50 defective parts, I would expect there to be pretty close to 50 claims against UPS or 50 credit card claims against the vendor, not a mere 3 claims. 47 consumers sure as hell aren't going to just eat this. Did you?

[Sawney Beane]

That's great! I've searched the web for a way to contact Norton.

When the ignitor disintegrated in the palm of my hand, I couldn't believe the dealer's assertion that UPS was at fault. It seemed most likely that it had come from the factory with cracks. I wanted to ask Norton if the dealer's printed warning was correct in saying the manufacturer's QC amounted to the random test firing of ignitors.

The ignitor came in a padded box with another company's name, so I also wanted to ask which company did the QC. The one I bought locally came in a box from a third company. When I opened it and saw it was made by Norton, I felt uneasy. I realized it was unfair to mistrust Norton products without verifying what the dealer had said.

The dealer's warning says his visual inspection proved the ignitor was free of defects. I think he knows better. I told him I'd filed the claim against UPS as instructed and bought an ignitor locally, but he never mentioned a refund, leaving me to expect a refund from UPS. He sent me another ignitor after I asked him five times not to send it because I had one.

I can imagine he would sell black-market rejects if he had a source. It may be downstream from Norton where ignitors are tested and rejects set aside in their padded boxes. Who would think to post a guard over junk? What would prevent a vending-machine servicer, for example, from taking some if he knew who would buy them?

I received an ignitor with multiple cracks. The dealer blamed UPS but also said most ignitors reach the consumer without being test fired. I find it more plausible to believe I received a QC reject. It implies that I can trust Norton products as long as they come through honest dealers.

Thanks again for alerting Norton. Until I was nine, I lived within walking distance of a Norton abrasives plant. A man I respected worked there.

[CBHVAC]

Your point?

I have one for you....we install upwards of 100 of those a year, for years now. I have only gotten ONE bad one out of the box. I installed 4 on one unit before we found out about the recall on the Robertshaw controller..... I sell to those that ask...no ones sent one back. Oil from your hands and fingers DOES cut the life of the ignitor. Just because you got a part, does not mean you got the full set of training instructions for handling with it.

You are one person, that needed ONE ignitor..while there are many of us in here that see those day in and day out and never have an issue.. So..guess what? Sounds to me like the ignitor was fine when it left...and you thought it would be cute to try to lift it out of the foam that is cut to fit it in the box by the ignitor itself, or, UPS stepped on the little box..

Im not defending Norton, but rather, letting you know that just because you got a bad one, no ones sending bad shit from the factory..if they were, no one would use them since there ARE replacements out there that are ceramic.

[Sawney Beane]

I nearly did. It looked perfect coming out of the package. A few seconds later, I looked in my hand and it was in pieces. I thought it must have been my fault.

Imagine this. You find this dealer's helpful website after your HVAC company didn't return your call. When the box arrives, you are surprised to see several FRAGILE tags because there was no such indication on the webside. Naturally, you examine the ignitor.

As you install it, you suddenly see that it's broken. Then you find the warning tucked away where it wasn't visible when you opened the box. It says the dealer's inspection proved it was not defective when shipped. This implies that your inspection proved it was okay when it arrived.

It warns against touching the "gray glass part." It says ignitors are FRAGILE and the dealer has broken a few himself. In that case, it must be very delicate, and you assume you broke it by touching it.

If you saw the warning in time to avoid touching it, the first indication of trouble may come after the ignitor is installed. It would take a bomb-disposal expert to install it without the slightest mechanical shock. If you believe the filament is extremely delicate, it may appear that the damage occurred during installation.

If not for my particular circumstances, I probably would have paid for the broken one and a new one.

1. I was "lucky" in that it broke as soon as I picked it up, and I had been gentle.
2. I had needed a 10x magnifier to find the break in the old one even though electricity had blown it open and left a white deposit. I knew my inspection would not have revealed hairline cracks.
3. I had twisted and pried the old filament for several days, trying to examine the broken ends. I would have been glad to break it, but it stood up to the abuse. The material was definitely not glass. It's known for its strength and resistance to thermal shock. Like a glass coke bottle or a sealed-beam headlamp,it could be called fragile but not delicate. Picking it up should not have harmed it.

Otherwise, I would accepted the loss as mine. It's easy for me to imagine that few customers would have called UPS.

[Sawney Beane]

So you agree that an ignitor that came through normal channels probably would not have arrived with three cracks.

Do you agree with my dealer that only a few random ignitors are tested? I'll bet they're all tested, like light bulbs.

Are you familair with the recrystalized silicon carbide ignitors made by Sealed Unit Products Company? They say that's a myth.

That sounds impressive. Where can I get the full set of training instructions?

Exactly!

Would picking it up "by the ignitor itself" break it?

It sounds as if your experience with ignitors has been limited, so let me fill you in. The two I bought, of two brands, didn't have foam cutouts. Each had a rectangular prism of sponge that fit the inside of the manufacturer's box. Each sponge was slit so that the top and bottom could be separated like the pages of a book. The ignitor lay in the slit. I had noted the FRAGILE labels on the box and avoided taking chances.

It was double boxed with no evidence of crushing.

Exactly! I was uneasy when I saw that the second ignitor was also a Norton, but it wouldn't make sense for a manufacturer to be haphazard with QC, no matter what the dealer says. I think the problem is the dealer.

[Bubba]

I'll take that as a "No" pussy. Bubba

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Norton is the largest supplier of igniters in the world. They got that way because of the quality of their parts. They make many millions of them for every major appliance company. .

St. Gobain-Norton Powers Street Milford NH

Why not give them a call?

Companies like Norton take steps to assure that does not happen. They are smart enough to have a procedure in effect to prevent that. They are a ISO9000 plant and have a written policy on rejects. I'm sure they will be glad to review it with you. Please, don't make accusations with no evidence as you look like a fool grasping at straws and can even leave you open for a libel suit. I have been in that plant where the igniters are made. It was

100% perfect when shipped to you.

[CBHVAC]

I do not. I do not agree to that. Im telling you that nothing is perfect..you got a bad one..damn..move on.

No..I dont. It gets tested before it leaves, and you can tell that by the discolorization on EACH and EVERY new one.

Yea, and are you familiar with how SEs can make a 12X20 duct go in a 5X7 hole? Marketing...

Ask your local community college..they aint cheap...

You are correcting yourself here.

Yea. DUH

Limited...umm..sure. Ok...whatever. I know what the box looks like skippy. I have a full set of the ones we run into every time we need one. I normally keep at least 3 of the faster moving ones on the vans...all of them. I also keep a few of the ceramic replacments with the metal jacket around them, and at least two complete HSI control systems on each truck. Did you notice the little yellow or pink, or white slip of paper in the box that said, in so many words, not to touch, or handle the carbide tip?

Then you just learned how fragile they can be then.,

Norton, as far as I am concerned, makes the best HSI carbide ignitor there is. Of course, after more than a decade of doing this, Ive got such limited experence, what in hell I know? I just buy a few thousand dollars worth of HSI units a year. I dont get it...you think the problems the dealer? AN INTERNET DEALER? A guy thats prob working out of a tin shack? Honestly, you prob could have called a local supplier, told them what you had, and gotten one as cheap, and then, since I dont know what your time is worth to you, could have saved a couple of hundred at least in time not having to run around and make noise. Your posting is confusing at best. Silicon Carbine ignitors, in general, are outdated, and while I carry more on one truck than you will see in a lifetime hopefully for you, (meaning, hopefully you never need that many to replace) its cause some people just dont want to pay the extra for a better unit. The furnaces that we install now dont even come with them, and havent had a failure on one now since they switched.

[CBHVAC]

Ed...I think hes FOS, cause norton does NOT include a decal or paper that says, and I quote "not to touch the grey glass" Nope..does not happen..aint in a box we have... I belive this fella thinks that carbide ignitors are bulletproof, and dont have whats called cleavage....maybe he outa look that one up.

Oh...and to the OP...we install I dare say 99% of them, never touch the ignitor by more than the white ceramic base, it never touches anything once its out of the package and if a 1st year apprentice can do it, anyone can..trust me. While some are located in some real suck ass places on CArrier units in particular, it can be done and the only part that gets to touch anything, is that base and the set screw..or metal snap tang that holds it in place..its not that hard..just slow, and easy. Try putting one in a unit in a 30F crawlspace, with under 20 inches of room to work.

[Bob]

LOL

Bob