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On 5/15/2016 7:59 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:

Exactly.
But, the problem isn't just zealotry on the user side.
Folks developing (marketing) OS's also seem to think their "solution" can apply to all problems/applications.
If it can, it does so poorly. If it does so "well", it is bloated.
Windows as an application layer (NOT an OS in 3.0), Windows as a desktop OS, Windows as an OS for PDA's (WinCE), Windows as an OS for phones, Windows as an embedded OS, etc. "Well, what is it, guys?"
The RTOS I've developed for my current project would be piss poor in a desktop environment. It doesn't obsess over speed, has no notion of disks, or users, or The Internet, etc.
OTOH, it is designed to be reliable, robust, secure and seamlessly distributed. The application has no idea that it is executing on a set of ~100 CPUs vs. "just one". Nor *which* of those it is executing on at the current time.
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On Sun, 15 May 2016 15:37:21 -0700, Don Y

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On 05/15/2016 07:56 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:
[snip]

Chrome OS. I prefer to have more control over my system. For one thing, I DO NOT want to go through GOOGLE just to print a page to the networked printer 2 feet away.
BTW, same thing for cloud thermostats, etc.. I'm NOT going to have something like that controlled only by someone else's server.
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wrote:

though.
I'd never have one because I need more than a poor browser.
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You bragging or complaining?

Define "user friendly". If you mean you have a buncha Windows users to give you help/info about yer new system, I agee. I've been using Linux fer almost 13 yrs and never had anyone to help me, so hadda solve all problems by myself (anda lotta O'Reilly books). In that respect, Linux is not real user friendly. OTOH, lotta new Linux distributions (distros) are VERY user friendly. As I mentioned before, Mint is specially user friendly.
BTW, I can have most any Linux box fully tweaked and running smoothly within a week or two. As fer Windows, I barely know how to fly XP, let alone W7-W10. ;)
nb
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On 5/14/2016 3:18 PM, notbob wrote:

Define "fully tweaked".
Windows boxes work "out of the box". You're not busy dicking with the window-manager-du-jour or the desktop-of-the-month.
Of course, if you're trying to set up IIS on windows, you're in pretty much the same boat as apache under any of the Eunices.
OTOH, setting up a box to provide *services* (instead of as a workstation) probably is easier in the FOSS world. At the very least, you don't have to go chase down vendors of appropriate "applications" to acquire them! (Though you may have to deal with a package manager and countless dependencies that you'd not envisioned)
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On 05/14/2016 05:08 PM, Don Y wrote:

Setting up the Apache HTTP server on Windows isn't difficult. While the Apache Foundation doesn't release Windows binaries, they are readily available at sites like ApacheHaus. That avoids CAL hell. Unless you're a lawyer, the CAL explanations are abstruse. One thing is for sure; if you ask M$ if you need a CAL, the answer is yes.
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On 5/14/2016 6:25 PM, rbowman wrote:

But Apache isn't IIS! :> Frankly, I can't see any reason you'd want to run a web service under windows -- even one of the "server" variants! It wasn't designed with that sort of application in mind (just like you wouldn't use Linux for real-time work).
Saying you *can* do <something> isn't the same as saying it's *appropriate*!
(I can dig a trench with a shovel. But, I surely wouldn't TRY!)

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On Sat, 14 May 2016 18:29:19 -0700, Don Y

I don't understand that since most enterprise servers are running it.
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On 5/14/2016 7:10 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

"Real-time" requires timeliness guarantees. Linux was not designed with that in mind.
What *guarantees* does an application have that it will complete by a particular deadline? What mechanisms does the OS provide to alert it to the fact that its deadline has passed?
Ask these questions of the OS each time your application requests some "service" from the OS -- read a disk file, request a block of (physical) memory, activate another process/task, etc.
The same is true of DOS/Windows/etc. The "real-time" solution with these systems is "buy a faster computer -- and HOPE!" (cuz some other job can get introduced that eats up resources that you HOPED would be yours!)
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On 05/14/2016 08:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
[snip]

[snip]
I have set up an Apache/PHP server on Windows, but I decided to use Linux instead, to make it more like the public server I use (Rackspace, Red Hat Linux). There are several ways PHP is different on Windows.
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On 05/14/2016 05:18 PM, notbob wrote:
[snip]

That, and I often find solutions to my Linux problems on the internet.

in 2010, I heard about he Ubuntu "live CD", and downloaded the ISO, burned it and booted. I was using Firefox MUCH more quickly than with Windows.
Also, I really prefer free software. It's not about the money (despite how many people make up that stuff), but about the impediments they put in commercial software because they ASSUME you're a thief.
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On 5/15/2016 11:42 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:

I don't see that. I can understand them not wanting you to buy one copy and use five -- regardless of the reasoning that might "sound OK" (I like Borland's "like a book" analogy -- so its not necessarily bound to a machine).
Aside from compiler/debugger, most FOSS applications just aren't up to par, in my opinion. They are missing capabilities and suffer from user interfaces that "just happened" instead of "being designed". Too often, the UI is bolted onto something that wasn't designed with it in mind. E.g., automatically rewriting rc files instead of abandoning them (will the app crash if I go in and muck up the file manually?)
I'm presently drafting a technical letter (no, not an email -- one that will actually travel on a plane! :> ). I wouldn't even think of using a "productivity suite" (e.g., MSOffice) -- let alone a crippled FOSS version of same. I'd spend all my time bouncing back and forth between applications trying to piece together the various graphics and inserts that I'll need. Instead, I'll do it all in FrameMaker and have a polished "product", when done.
The appeal free software has to me is that I can *fix* it without waiting for the vendor to decide "my problem" is worth their attention. AND, not have to embrace a bunch of other "fixes"/changes at the same time (which may or may not actually work!).
I can also verify ambiguities in the documentation: "Hmmm... it SAYS that it does THIS. But, the code shows it doing THAT!"
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On Sun, 15 May 2016 12:08:19 -0700, Don Y

available- and the EULA for a lot of "free" software prohibits backward engineering or modifying the code - - - .
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On 5/15/2016 1:45 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Software that's "free" and not open source is usually on its way to becoming a "for profit" product. You're just doing them the favor of being their beta tester...
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On Sun, 15 May 2016 14:09:27 -0700, Don Y

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On 05/14/2016 05:18 PM, notbob wrote:

Neither.
Although I had previous computer experience back in the punch card days...I had gotten out of the field entirely by 1982 and had close to zero experience at the time. Once I learned Win95 I needed a bigger challenge and that was Linux.
I was so ignorant at the time, i did not even know what a partition was.
Linux was an excellent learning experience.

Yes, as I mentioned in another thread, I just gave unsophisticated users Linux machines to use and they needed no special instructions
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On Fri, 13 May 2016 09:14:13 -0700, Don Y

Haw about the various versions of CPM? or the multi-user multi-tasking OS9 ?(generally on Motorola 6809 and 68000 series systems)

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On 5/13/2016 5:30 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Don't run on PC's.
MP/M, ISIS-II, ZRDOS, ZDOS, VRTX, QNX, FreeDOS, MULTICS, TOPS-10, DG/UX, AIX, ZCPR3, RTX11, UNIX, MINIX, XENIX, AmigaOS, NeXTSTEP, etc.
It's unfortunate that the one most people think about (Windows) is probably the most boring...
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