So... The sun beating down on the house at 100+ degrees, a hot wire in the
wall also pumping out say 150+ degrees... Vinyl will melt, but wood won't
For the time and cost to open up the wall, I'd do it to be sure.
Cable defect or punctured with a screw which causes an intermittent
poor conductance short - not enough to blow the breaker, but enough
to heat things up. Could be load related. Could be something
really stupid like an "in-air" splice without proper connectors (cue
other thread). Could be that some dweeb wired it with lamp cord
because he ran out of proper stuff (cue a different thread).
If every "overheat" caused a wholesale fire, there'd be vastly more
houses going up in smoke.
Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
I don't think the hear was generated from arcing, I think that there is
a very intermittent arc, perhaps only occurring once that started a fire
in the wall cavity and the fire is what produced the heat before it self
extinguished, probably due to good sealing of the wall cavity preventing
it from getting enough air to really get established.
Also, having some familiarity with PVC I'm pretty confident that the
siding would be dripping down the wall well before it could transfer
enough heat to affect the Tyvek behind it.
Either way it's both unlikely that a quick spray of a solvent or a wipe
with solvent on a rag to remove overspray would cause that kind of
damage, much less have it appear suddenly many months later. PVC pipe
and conduit is largely the same thing and it's primed and glued with
solvents stronger than any you'd use to remove some stain overspray and
it doesn't suddenly deform either.
Quite correct. Let's hope we hear back soon.
Oh, yeah, sure, that must be what you meant. How were planning to get a
sniffer between the vinyl siding and the sheathing?
Got any data behind that assumption? Or are you just guessing again?
You wrote "detectable amount inside". If you meant "behind the siding" you
could have said so -- not my fault if you didn't write what you meant.
OK, so you *don't* have any data behind that assumption, and you *are* just
guessing. Got it.
Still waiting for your explanation of how your magic heat source discolors the
vinyl siding on the surface *away* from the heat, but not on the surface
That "test" obviously doesn't even come close to replicating the conditions
you believe to exist. Here's a better one: place the siding on top of the OSB,
outdoors, and then build a wood fire underneath the OSB. When the surface of
the vinyl siding *away* from the heat source begins to discolor, examine the
surface of the siding *toward* the heat source, *and* the OSB, for signs of
damage. Go ahead -- try it. Then tell us what you find.
Yet you don't find it unlikely at all that a heat source inside the wall would
discolor the surface of the vinyl siding *away* from the heat source, while
leaving the surface *toward* the heat source undisturbed.
Doesn't say much for your ability to evaluate what's likely or unlikely.
Uh-huh. And it was this "objective" analysis that let you to conclude that the
presumed heat source discolored the side of the vinyl siding *away* from the
heat, the side exposed to free air, the side *guaranteed* to be the coolest,
while leaving undisturbed the surface of the siding with the greatest exposure
The same "objective" analysis of the damage apparent on the successive layers,
namely, severe damage to the siding (outermost), slight damage to the Tyvek
(next inside), no damage evident on the OSB (innermost of the three visible),
also led you to conclude that the damage was caused by a heat source INterior
to the home. Right, a heat source INside the wall causes the greatest damage
on the OUTside, and the closer you get to the heat source, the less damage is
Phooey. You *began* with the assumption of an internal heat source, and you're
inventing explanations for it, in the absence of any clear evidence.
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
No, it isn't. The siding is supposed to be ventilated and can be used
with or without the Tyvek. The Tyvek is there to improve sealing of the
building envelope i.e. the joints between the sheets of OSB, regardless
of the siding placed over it, not to overcome some deficiency in the
There is no sealant in the laps of traditional wood siding, nor is it a
very tight joint. This "leaky" overlap joint provides the same
ventilation function that the cut slots in the vinyl siding provide,
allowing water vapor migrating from inside the house to escape rather
than condense behind the siding and cause rot, mold or other problems.
How about sticking the sampling hose through one of the vent slots in
the vinyl siding?
Yep. You're the only one guessing and making dangerous suggestions.
Only a moron would take "inside" to mean inside the house, when the
entire discussion has centered around the siding, Tyvek wrap and OSB
Yes, I do have data. I've read the OP's posts and they have provided
quite sufficient data to indicate that the solvent was applied many
months ago and was thinner wiped on to remove overspray from staining
the deck and has pretty much zero chance of being related to the OP's
recently deformed siding.
* More damage to the Tyvek wrap than the siding.
* Extra nail visible in the sheathing in the suspect area.
* Four electrical boxes surrounding the suspect area.
I never made any such claim. You are the only one who ever suggested
there would be discoloration on the siding.
Try applying Tyvek and vinyl siding onto the OSB and then torch the OSB
from the back until the vinyl deforms. Again, you are the only one who
has made any claims of discoloration on the vinyl siding.
Where is this magic discoloration on the surface of the vinyl siding you
claim? The OP's photos do not show any discoloration on the vinyl
Doesn't say much for your reading comprehension or visual acuity.
You probably are since you're too stupid to do anything intelligent.
Where is this discoloration you claim? The OP's photo
) does not show any
such discoloration. If you can't differentiate a shadow from
discoloration, that's your problem.
Your analysis of the damage is seriously flawed. The damage to the
Tyvek, namely shrinkage and melting to the point of holes forming, is
significantly greater than the damage to the vinyl siding, namely
softening and sagging.
I've noted plenty of evidence to support an internal heat source, you've
not noted any evidence to back your claims and indeed you have
fabricated claims not supported by anything the OP has posted.
They damage wiring, create shorts and start fires with some regularity.
Indeed that is the reason for code requirements regarding stapling
wiring back from the edges of the studs and the use of metal nail
protection plates at locations where wiring passes through studs close
to the edge.
Apparently none that you are able to realize.
True. I never once claimed there was any discoloration on the siding.
I clearly state "soften and deform", and nowhere state "discolor".
Looking at the photo again on a system with a CRT monitor, it does
appear that there is some discoloration. In that case I would expect
comparable discoloration on the back side of the siding as well. My
assessment of the likely cause remains unchanged.
It's not my house that is at risk of burning down based on your bad
advice. If my assessment turns out to be incorrect, the only damage is a
half hour of work removing and replacing a small piece of OSB.
Not on an LCD monitor it isn't. On a good CRT it looks like it is. One
more example of why LCDs shouldn't be used for critical graphics work.
I'm fixated on the evidence that indicated an internal heat source is
likely, which includes the more significant damage to the Tyvek, and the
fact that the position of the damage to the siding would not align with
a grill being moved too close and radiating heat.
The wall segment between the railing and the door is about 24" wide
based on the 4" wide outlet. A grill is about the same or greater depth
and if positioned there would have also damaged the siding closer to the
door. The damage also appears to continue behind the railing, something
that would be very unlikely with radiant heat from a grill.
I've seen it plenty, and on an LCD monitor it doesn't appear discolored.
On a CRT monitor it does.
Monitor, not eyes. It doesn't change my assessment though since the
other evidence clearly supports my conclusion and discoloration of the
siding doesn't affect that conclusion one way or another.
No, I've clearly noted the evidence. Indeed the fact that the damage
continues behind the railing almost completely rules out an external
source. I raise my probability of finding fire damage within the wall to
Discoloration that from what we know so far tells us absolutely and
sways the analysis of the other evidence not at all. If you have
evidence that there is not comparable discoloration on the back side of
the siding, let us know, otherwise we have to base our conclusions on
the other evidence which clearly supports an internal heat source.
Are there holes in the siding? There are in the Tyvek.
No, I assess there is a probability of a fire inside the wall based on
all of the evidence. The nail which is clearly located close to a known
electrical box position and is clearly redundant with the one an inch or
two away from it is only one piece of evidence that supports that
What evidence would you have to see for you to believe that there may
have been a fire within that wall? The evidence of a significant heat
source having been present within that wall is quite clear. A fire is
the only likely source for such heat within the wall. An electrical
fault is the most probably initiator of such a fire.
Apparently, if you claim I ever indicated there was discoloration prior
to my discovery of the LCD monitor issue.
Your reading comprehension problem again. I apparently should have
stated "without discoloring either side" to match your limited
comprehension. Since I had already stated that I didn't see
discoloration on the outside (due to the monitor issue) I presumed your
reading comprehension was sufficient to understand that my statement
should not be construed to indicate there would be discoloration on the
outside, but not the inside.
Misquoting doesn't help your loosing argument.
No, you won't. My not seeing the discoloration due to a monitor issue in
no way changes my conclusion of the likely cause of the damage based on
all the evidence we have available.
You are the one who refuses to revisit the evidence I have pointed out
and review your conclusions. You have provided no explanation for how
the external heat source you have fixated on could cause the damage in
the areas I have noted.
Tyvek is a few thousandths of inch thick; vinyl siding is thicker by far. And
the area of the damaged siding is many times larger than the area of the
You have *no* evidence, just assumptions.
And that nail *must* have pierced an electrical cable and started a fire, or
you wouldn't have any justification at all for your assumptions.
Charred wood would do it for me.
Garbage. There is no evidence whatsoever of any heat source inside that wall,
significant or otherwise. You have *assumed* an interior heat source from the
beginning, and searched for evidence to support that assumption, instead of
looking at the evidence and following where it leads.
There's no evidence whatever that there ever was any such fire.
Reading comprehension again, Pete...
Liar. You stated that there was no discoloration.
That only came later -- after you could no longer continue to deny, even to
yourself, that there was any discoloration present.
There isn't anything wrong with my reading comprehension here, Petey.
That's an exact, direct quote.
BTW -- it's spelled "losing". Moron.
You denied that any discoloration existed, and called me a moron for stating
that it did.
Only because your mind is already made up, and you're not willing to listen to
anything to the contrary.
You haven't pointed out any evidence, just assumptions.
That's because I have *never* stated that this was caused by an external heat
source. I have maintained all along that the cause is solvent exposure.
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
The plastic cover on the sheeting underneath the siding is melted and the
wrinkles around it indicate a source of heat. You can come to any
conclusion you desire but the sensible and logical answer is a source of
heat caused that melting.
The more I stare at this the more I think it was a lightning strike.
Notice the wrinkles in the Tyvek correspond to the indents of the siding.
Yes the heat source was outside, melted the siding, and where it touched the
Tyvek it distorted/melted it too.
What says it wasn't from inside the wall and where the siding was touching
the Tyvek, it was acting as insulation/heat sink and absorbing the heat?
In the other areas, the heat was able to be absorbed by the air and be
carried off with little damage.
The plastic under the siding would have been exponentially more melted had
the heat source been underneath it. I doubt that lightning was the
culprit, there would have been much more damage. Got any kids around who
like to play with fire?
Have you checked the melting point of Tyvek (polyolefin) vs. the siding
(polyvinyl) vs. the temp required to discolor the OSB siding?
My take on it based on what I've seen is that either one of those green
washered nails, or a screw from securing the inside counter has clipped
a wire and at some point arced and caused a fire inside the wall that
thankfully self extinguished.
I would immediately open up that wall cavity to investigate before it
happens again and the whole house potentially goes up.
No, therefore I don't jump to conclusions like you do.
Claiming that the "plastic under the siding" i.e. the polyolefin Tyvek
would be "exponentially more melted" had the heat come from inside the
wall vs. the polyvinyl siding is rather like claiming that the silicone
baking mat would melt before the cookies on it baked if the heat came
from under it which obviously isn't true.
As for the OP's siding, tyvek, OSB and house, there is a fair amount of
evidence pointing to the likelihood of a heat source from inside the
wall and given the ease of removing and replacing a section of sheathing
and the risk if the problem is as suspected, there is no point in
looking up polyvinyl and polyolefin melt temps.
Bottom line - open the wall and see what the hell is going on.
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