unwanted guest

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I have an in-law suite above my garage. My son used to live in there. He moved out and bought a house and a friend of my daughters was fueding with his mom, (his dad already put him out)so I let him move into the room provided he did "son things" and paid his own way as far as utilities went. Well he won't do the son things, has too many people over and told me I'm crazy when I showed him the utility bill and he wont move out. What the fuck can I do short of killing him? He's been there since November so he should have saved up enough money to get a place by now. He hides from my husband and wrote us a letter saying he thinks he has renters rights. Can anybody give me some advice? The kid has been lying to us all along. I'm afraid he's going to trash the place or worse yet, get raided for having under-aged friends in there drinking and smoking pot. He was an alright kid when he was sleeping on my couch. Now he thinks he's king of the hill. I just want him to leave.
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I'd check with an attorney. Depending on where you live, he could have renters rights and you may have to evict him.
If he's got underage girls or you smell funny smoke you can call the police and he'll get arrested. Then quickly change the locks after he's taken away. Easier said than done, I suppose. Pasar
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Where is your daughter in all of this? Perhaps she may be able to reason with her "friend" better than you?
Boy would I welcome this challenge in my house!
First, as soon as he left to go anywhere, I'd haul every bit of his stuff away to the city dump with my truck. Gone. Never existed.
When he comes back and starts ranting, you call the cops and have the delinquent arrested for trespassing. Who do you think the cops will believe, a reasonable adult or a punk kid who's probably well known by the police?
He's not a renter. Never has been. Where's the contract? Since he's never paid you, there's no paper trail proving he's ever 'rented'. He's a squatter. They have no rights except in some backwards ass states like Florida.
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In alt.home.repair on Wed, 26 Jan 2005 09:58:11 -0500 Mark
Posted and mailed to OP. Please reply on the list, unless you really prefer to email.

Where did you learn language like that? It won't do your case any good, no matter whom you are talking to.

That would make you a thief.
And if the OP is worried about vandalism by the kid now, she'll have 20 times as much reason to worry were she to throw his stuff away.
Not to mention being liable to pay for it all when the kid takes her to court.

They had an oral contract. Do you want her to deny the agreement they had, to perjure herself in court, to be a thief and a perjurer?
He is a monthly tenant, and he is entitled to 30 days notice before he can be forced to leave. She is also entitled to 30 notice before he can stop paying rent. But since iiuc there is no rent, that really has no effect.

No he's not. He moved in with her permission.

             He has rights in every state in the Union.
Kathy maybe you should contact a lawyer, but what you should do tomorrow is give him his 30 day notice, in writing, saying that he must leave within 30 days. It would be a very good idea to first tell him that you need the space. Make up a story if you have to -- lying to him about why is not against the law. Tell him your son wants to come home. If he knows your son owns a house, tell him that he can't meet the mortgage payments. or better yet, tell him that your nephew from out of town plans to go to college, or high-school, or take a job in your town, and his parents want him to stay with you, or he can't afford anything more, etc. There are lots of other stories, but make it sound important, and something that can't be delayed. Tell him you'd appreciate it if he'd move earlier, but he must leave in 30 days.
If your written notice to him is inadequate, you can improve it later, and start the 30 day period from that later date, but it will probably be correct.
When the 30 days are up, wait until he is out and change the locks. Make an appointment with him to get his stuff, and have him come with the police. They like to do this sort of thing, seriously. They would rather prevent problems than arrest someone later.
Don't throw his stuff away, and don't leave it outside where it can be rained on or stolen. And where you won't be able to prove that he got it and not thieves. Furthermore, most people go through a stage in their lives when they are jerks. They shouldn't lose their stuff because of that. Check in your jurisdiction how long he has to get all his stuff before it is considered abandoned. It is often "a reasonable time". That I think is at least 30 days from the day you change the locks. It's not like keeping his stuff will prevent you from renting the room, since you don't plan to rent it. When the time comes and you are entitled to get rid of his stuff, I would still only get rid of the bulky things, furniture etc. His personal things, letters, photos, trophies, insurance policies, diplomas, will all fit in one or two or 3 liquor boxes and it won't hurt you to save that for a couple years. Don't tell him he has a couple years. Tell him he has 30 days, but when he grows up and realizes what he has done wrong, or when he doesn't and he sues you, you will still be able to give him back this personal stuff.
You can, of course, sue him for the unpaid utilities.
It will be hard to prove that he didn't do "son things" or the monetary value of the things he didn't do.
You were trying to do him a favor. Don't let his bad behaviour reduce you to reverse bad behaviour.
However, under certain circumstances, I might change the locks in less than 30 days. He can sue you for damages, such as motel rent for a few days, maybe even a week or two, but even if he wins, that's only money, which is much less important than what he might take (or destroy?) if notice really angers him. But if you've treated his possessions well, the court will respect you, and will more likely believe you when you say there was reason to fear his vandalism.
However, I'm not sure how changing the locks would prevent his vandalism. It seems to me it would make it more likely. Are you always home? Does he have a car to come over when you are not? That's why you should be nice while you are giving him legal notice, or during the days you change the locks, and thereafter. In a year or two you can tell him all the insults you feel like saying now. In a year or two, he won't feel like retaliating, (and you probably won't care enough by then to say them anyhow.)
On one occasion, when I had roommates ( He was my only roommate at the the time.), I did change the locks on my apartment without giving any notice. And I would do it again. But that situation was a little different. I think he had already stolen money from my dresser (not 100% positive, because a neighbor kid was there while I went to the grocery. He used to come over after school, and I always said he could stay when I went to the grocery, and he always chose to leave when I did. By sad coincidence, this was the only time he stayed. And the only time I left money in my dresser. Usually I carried it all in my wallet.)
The deciding factor was that I was going away for a long weekend, and I was afraid he would steal everything I owned while I was gone, even though I knew his name and where he went to school and could have found him, had him arrested and deported if he had done that. Still, I didn't want to leave him in the house.
This case was also different because he was just starting grad school about 4 blocks from my apartment and I knew he could get student housing if he got there before 5. All of the previous days, maybe 6 of them, he had gone to school and come back in less than 3 hours, before noon. Sadly, this day he was gone all day, and I couldn't leave because I was afraid he would set fire to my apartment door if he came back and the lock was changed, or do something. Because I lived in an apartment, there was little he could do except set fire to the door (or damage my car, if he remembered which one it was.) I *should* have changed the locks when he was sleeping and then gotten up early and walked him out when he left, locked the door behind me, and once outside, I should have given him the letter I wrote. Maybe I should have given him the letter and immediately left.
Instead, when he returned and couldn't get his key to work, and was about to leave, I opened the door with the chain on, when he was standing at the elevator, and put the letter on the floor for him, outside the door. Then I locked the door again.
He was a foreign student and he went straight to the police and showed them the letter. After they read the letter, they called me, and I told them he was welcome to get his stuff, but I needed an appointment because I wanted a friend to be here when he came. They said the police would come with him, and I said fine, and in 5 or 10 minutes they were there. He annoyed the police by taking forever to pick out what he wanted to take. he wanted his deposit back and I gave him a check for some, but told him and the police I needed to hold back some for the phone bill. This is 25 years ago, and it just occurs to me that I don't think he ever asked for the money I held back.
The police that evening didn't challenge my right to kick him out, even if I had no right, because that is what courts are for. The police are basically there to keep the peace and arrest criminals, not to get involved in civil matters.
Meirman -- If emailing, please let me know whether or not you are posting the same letter. Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.
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move his stuff out of the in-law suite and get the door lock(s) re-keyed (or changed)
call a law enforcement official when he shows up so he understands he is no longer welcome there

based on what you've said he has paid no rent (monetary or otherwise), and, if so, he has not fulfilled his legal responsibilities so what would any renter's rights be based on?

consult with an attorney on the legal issues (this one is for home repairs)
find an appropriate newsgroup for this discussion and/or find someone offline to help you through it

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In alt.home.repair on Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:34:32 -0600 "effi"

It would be based on the contract. Failure to perform does not vitiate a contract. It leaves the non-performing side liable for damages, but it doesn't mean the other side can do anything it wants.
It doesn't matter whether he paid any money or not in most or all states. He may not be a renter if he doesn't pay rent, but he's still a tenant, and the law refers to "tenants" and not to "renters".

Meirman -- If emailing, please let me know whether or not you are posting the same letter. Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.
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good information, and in your other posts in this thread as well
you were silent on the issues raised by the owner of possible (or actual? owner didn't clarify) undergae drinking and pot use by the tenant on the owner's property (i.e. from owner, from below quoted text: " I'm afraid he's going to trash the place or worse yet, get raided for having under-aged friends in there drinking and smoking pot.") are those issues best left alone by the owner in the situation cited, whether possible or actual?

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This is a hoax.
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RobertPatrick wrote:

Ya think?
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LOL I saw all these people replying with help so I guess they don't think so.
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Not joking, the list of replies is not like a 100.
Just goes to show, there are lots of people out there willing to listen(read) your problem and help you with some advice. It's a nice thing.
later,
tom @ www.ChopURL.com
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wrong. It's just real life.
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Start simple turn the breaker off that feeds his Room. I doubt he will stay to long with no electricity.
--
Brian Dye
-------------------------------------
  Click to see the full signature.
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Be very careful how you handle this. Tenant's rights is a very tough hurdle for the landlord to overcome. Document everything. **Consult with a lawyer trained in landlord/tenant disputes.** You will probably end up evicting the tenant. Once they get in and refuse to pay it could take upwards of six months to get them out. Make sure you do everything by the book. Follow all codes. Do not enter their apartment without their approval. If you make one mistake it will be a strike against you when you eventually take this sob to court.
Remember it is your house, but its there apartment. And the law tends to lean in the tenants favor, especially if the landlord doesn't follow the book. Did I say consult with a lawyer trained in these matters?
Did you have a signed lease agreement with the tenant? Check with your local government - local, state, whatever to find out what you *must* do.
Once you get this sob out (or before would probably be better) you can rent the movie Pacific Heights. Good flick about a dream gone sour.
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Unless there are monetary trail or a lease/rental agreement, he is not a tenant. He's a squatter.
I'd like to know if there is a paper trail (bank records or contract) proving some type of rental arrangement.
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wrote:

hurdle
lawyer
the
proving
There is not a paper trail. He gave $500 towards utilities and tried to create a paper trail by giving my husband a money order made out to cash but I got one of his (former) friends to cash it. I'm sure his mother told him to pay with a money order. He's 22 years old, if that matters. When he camehere it wasso he could be closer to a bus route so he could get a job. He ended up gettingajob at WAWA. Not the kind of job he told us he was after. He had said he was after ajob at the newspaper. I arranged an interview for him and he never showed up.
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No paper trail = squatter. Move his stuff out when he's away and call the police after he returns. Again, his word against yours.
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In alt.home.repair on Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:33:44 -0500 Mark

No it doesn't. It's obvious that he was living there with her permission, or she would have called the police the first night.

And if they belive him she will be in a lot of trouble, financial trouble at least**. There is no way the police, a judge, or a jury will believe the story you want Kathy to tell.
**Plus people get angry when you lie about them and what happened between you and them. Lying by Kathy will escalate hostilities.
Meirman -- If emailing, please let me know whether or not you are posting the same letter. Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.
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meirman wrote: ....

So you just finished recommending she lie to the bum by making up some cock and bull story about why he simply "must" leave instead of just saying she wants him out???
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In alt.home.repair on Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:40:17 -0600 Duane Bozarth

Very observant. I noticed that when I posted, but it was late and I was writing too much already.
First, I should say that if her out-of-town nephew never shows up to live in the room, someone in Kathy's shoes could just say, His parents decided not to send him, or It didn't work out. Then tenant may never know that she was lying.
AND
There is a big difference between lying about oneself and lying about someone else.
1) The tenant, call him T, will know immediately if she lies about him.
2) And when he denies to the police what she said, she'll have to say the same thing again.** This will make it look like he is lying to the police. If the police believe that, they will be angry at T. The police have some discretion in how they treat people, and T will be treated as badly as is permissable. (In practice, the police sometimes go beyond what is allowed, and if they think T lied to them, T will be first in line to be treated badly.)
**If she doesn't repeat her lie after T denies it, Kathy will look like she's been lying, and she'll be in a worse situation than she was when she started.
3) Even if he knows that she is lying about her nephew staying in the room, a lie like that will not enrage T like lying about what T himself has said or done.
I forget what the suggestions were for false things for Kathy to say about T, but they all made T look worse than he was. That makes them slander or akin to slander. And libel (which includes slander).
Kathy's lying about why she needs the room is not slander or libel. It may seem to some to dishonor Kathy, but whether it does that or not, it doesn't dishonor T.
It's best to avoid lying when there is no good*** reason for it, but Kathy was, when she wrote, afraid that he would damage her house. He could cause tens of thousands of dollars in only a few minutes. He could burn the whole house down in less than a minute if he lit the fire in the right place. Lying to a dangerous person about why one needs to kick him out of the room in order to save one's property is an exception to the no-lying rule.
***I mean ethicially good. A swindler has a "good" reason to lie to those he swindles, but that's from his pov. On an absolute scale "so that I can be a successful swindler" is not a "good" reason. Using "good reason" in this case is a figure of speech, a non-standard meaning of the word "good", and refers to practicality, not to ethics.
Meirman -- If emailing, please let me know whether or not you are posting the same letter. Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.
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