ultimate foundation failure

[camryguy]

Ok, here is a long story, but one I find interesting. about 7 years ago, when I was still in High School, a group of students went to a house that had been empty and abandoned for about 45 years. I had driven past the house many times, not giving it a second thought, but when told the story, was very intrigued. I didn't personally go into the house at that time, just heard about it. So, they mentioned that they got in through the back of the house where the wall had fallen down and allowed entry inside. So today, I took a drive up as I had been thinking about the house off and on since. To appease my curiosity, I pulled in the driveway and got out of the car. On one of the boarded up windows is a "For Sale By Owner" sign, so I thought that if anyone came and asked, that I would say I am interested in the property. after walking around the front and looking in a window, I walked to the back of the house to my amazement to see all of the walls pretty much intact. I was stumped, because I had seen pictures of people from inside the house. As I'm looking at the house, I'm checking the foundation and the roof, which after 45 years or so, seemed to be in pretty decent shape. the roof as far as I could tell had 1 hole in it but the rest seemed to be ok. I proceeded to the other side of the house and with shock and almost horror found the wall that did indeed fail. It wasn't the side of the house, but the foundation it was sitting on. I couldn't believe my eyes. it was one whole section of the house and around a corner to what looked like an addition. The house seemed to be suspended in mid air as if defying gravity. The floor had given way and allowed the fridge to fall in the basement with it. I then turned around and left the property quickly as that kinda spooked me out. The house is unique in design and shape but at one time had a grand elegance to it. I found a picture on the internet of it from the early 20th century. It looked so beautiful and full of life. Now it is a crumbling death trap ready to burn. So my question is this, what can make a foundation wall collapse from underneath a house like that. the house I am in now is 150 years old with a partial granite/brick foundation. The stupid thing has never shown any sign of failure or deterioration. Can a house really die? or was the wall purposely broken to gain entry? Not really a help question, but mere curiosity.

[jw]

It could be rebuilt. It's been done before. Jack posts do wonders to hold up walls until a foundation wall is repaired. If it's such a nice place, I bet you could buy it cheap. Then jack it up to stabalize it ASAP and begin the foundation repair. Leave it sit like this much longer and it will come crashing down. Give it new life!!!

[aemeijers]

Lotsa things can make a basement cave in, especially on an abandoned house. And especially one with an old chinked rubble-stone foundation like that one likely had (if it was pre-1910 or so), even if the visible part above grade was brick or skinned in brick. Was this house in frost country, by any chance? Usual culprit is water, often draining off the roof with failed or no gutters, saturating the ground near the foundation and freezing. Frost heave in winter, plus the rain washing away the chinking between the stones, eventually makes them fall apart just like an old stone fence. Even if basement is early block or brick, rather than stone, the mortar used back then was less than ideal, and foundation drainage was seldom taken into consideration. People expected basements to be wet. We'd have to see detailed pictures to make an informed guess.

As to what other poster said- yeah, if you throw enough money at it, almost anything can be 'restored', but if place is too far gone, it is more like re-creating it. Kinda like This Old House used to do in the old days, before they switched to doing rich yuppie mansions. It is seldom any cheaper than new construction, and only really justified for historical properties. And even if rebuilt and insulated with modern materials and HVAC/plumbing, they almost always cost a fortune to operate.

I've been through several properties like that over the years, but it wasn't with a bunch of kids running wild, probably at night. That hole in the roof likely had holes (or weak spots) in the floors below it. And I grew up in the business, so I know how to eyeball spaces before I walk into them, and stay away from spots likely to hurt me. Some of the places I saw were indeed magnificent old piles. One even had an inlaid hardwood floor up in the attic, which apparently was a dancing room for parties. (In a part of Indianapolis that was a rich neighborhood in the

1900-1920 era, but was now part of the 'hood, bordering on slumdom.) One can only hope that some historical society or school of architecture documents places like that before they fall down, because most never will get rebuilt.

[Jim Elbrecht]

-snip-

The house didn't die-- but it needs some loving & either a lot of $ or a bit less money and a lot of sweat.

My 100 n'something year old house has a dry laid stone foundation on clay. The basement was always damp & the ceiling height was 5' 11' & I'm 6'2". So I began to dig. I wanted to put a French Drain [sorry heybub] around the perimeter and lower the floor a foot or so.

I got the trench dug- about 1' in from the existing wall-- and mother nature threw us a 150 year rain deluge. For us 2" is a lot of rain in one day. This one dropped 4 in 2 hours. . . . . and collapsed 2 adjoining walls in the basement. One for 25', the other for 18'. The corner between them held. And it didn't crack the plaster upstairs. [though things shook some & I thought the oak tree had landed on the roof.

Water erosion alone could do the same thing in a house if nobody was paying attention to it.

The insurance company said 'pound salt' - the contractor said "$40K off the top of my head".

So my son, my brothers in law and I had a summers worth of sweat work- and $10K later I have 2 proper insulated walls of 10" block, perimeter drains inside and out, an 8' ceiling in most of my basement, and the basement is pretty dry. [oh--- and some real good life & construction lessons packed away, too]

Now that its over, I can look back and say it was a good thing it caved in-- I've got a much better situation down there now than I was going for with the Band-Aid approach.

Jim

[Hugh Jassolle]

Being a plumber I've seen many shady foundations in older homes. Although not my job I've warned some residents of the fact in case they didn't realize they had problems. I've also worked in some homes that were receiving foundation renovations. It's 100% possible to repair the foundation and likely a good buy if you get the house cheap enough.

[camryguy]

Well, I'm sure that I could get it cheap. Probably close to nothing, but would never be able to do what it needs in order for it to survive another 100 years. I don't have the financial capabilities to do a project like that yet. Maybe after university, we'll find out!

[Red]

if u get it cheap enough the bank will float the repairs.

[Han]

You should have stayed in school. They teach how to construct a paragraph.

[camryguy]

I didn't ask about my education, or how to build a paragraph. I asked about a foundation on a house. If you wish to reply, please do, but only on the topic being discussed.

[Hugh Jassolle]

Pay no mind to the grammar cops. They have nothing to offer. Hell I am a college grad and tech school grad and my grammar isn't worth a rat's ass.

[camryguy]

HAHAHA...Thanks, I am a licensed Survey Technician, now continuing on to get my Canadian Land Surveyors Certificate. Math was my Forte! :)

[aemeijers]

(snip)

Unless OP is in one of those rare areas with a housing stock shortage, not real likely. Too many houses that DON'T need major rebuilding out there right now, at cheap prices. One would have to walk in with plans from a contractor, and a real good analysis of the local real estate market, showing that the value of the completed project would be higher than the amount of the loan. Bank won't loan more than they think they can get out of it if they have to repo. All they would likely loan on it right now is land value minus teardown costs, and only that with a clean environmental bill of health. (IOW, no old abandoned oil tank.)

[camryguy]

An oil tank never occurred to me. Worth investigating I guess. There isn't one present on the exterior of the property, but in those days, oil tanks were stored in basements. Since the basement is easily accessed, I may go in for a quick peek.

[camryguy]

Well, I went back to the property this evening for a closer inspection of things. The back wall above the missing foundation wall is ready to fall. It is pulling away from the adjoining wall. Looking into some windows that are not boarded up, the house is in rough shape. the ceilings have all collapsed and there is a major mold problem. A closer look at the foundation and there are too many weak places to list. The roof is in desperate shape with a sagging roof line. The property, although at one time gorgeous is now ready for the wrecking ball. I give that house one more year at the most before gravity does what it does best.

[aemeijers]

Do your bit for history. That place where you saw the old photo of when the house was young and healthy- some sort of local historical society? If they keep a house archive (many do), they might like some current photos for their collection. Don't go inside or put yourself at risk or anything, but give them a call and see if they have somebody you can send some digital snaps to.

The house may surprise you- I've seen houses abandoned close to a century, that were still recognizable as houses. Abandoned barns can last even longer, since they are more sturdily built.

[Oren]

Sounds like a perfect location for a training session, the local fire department can have a controlled burn.

Hope the owner has good insurance for a possible liability claim.

[camryguy]

If anyone is interested, I want to post some pictures of the house that I took earlier today. However, I have no clue how to do that. If anyone knows/wants to see them, post a reply with some directions. thanks!

[aemeijers]

Go to tinypic.com or photobucket.com, and follow the menus. At some point in the process, it will give you links to the pictures you uploaded. Cut and paste those links into a post back here.

Glad you took pictures, but the place they need to end up is wherever you saw that old photo. Library, historical society, whatever.

[camryguy]

Ok, I did it!

Here is the link to the picture of the house from 1902:

is the link of the pictures I took today, Sept 6, 2010: I will be sending the photos to the Melvern Square historical society as well. Actually I have been in contact with the head of the site to see if she knew anything about the property. She said that she would ask at the next meeting! Any information I find out, I will gladly share!

[camryguy]

On the Melvern Square Community Website, scroll to the bottom to find the picture. It is yellowed with writing on it.