I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should use type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me the advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with repiping a house. any help appreciated. Ron
Type L is thicker than M, and is therefore more desireable; it costs a little more. Type K is thicker still, but is only very rarely used, in government installations, perhaps. You should be able to buy either M (red stripe) or L (bluegreen stripe); the fittings are the same for both. Go with L; it doesn't cost much more, but is more durable over time, and, furthermore, can take more punishment during the installation process. By all means, check your local plumbing code requirements; pull a permit for your repipe job, and the inspectors will help you do the job correctly! When you sell your house, you will be able to show the buyer that the repiping job was done under permit, using lead-free joining, etc. Sand your joints inside the fittings and outside the piping, for the ultimate weld; this is very time consuming. Plumbers in haste probably won't; they know all the shortcuts.
I haven't checked the Uniform Plumbing Code (at local library) for quite a number of years, but when I did, it was permissible to use M above ground, while L was required below and at grade. Your plumbing inspector will verify what is permissible! How much better to be guided correctly at the outset than to have to redo the work later. UPC will provide some guidelines for proper sizing of your pipes.
You haven't specified whether your present piping is copper, steel, or whatever. To install copper piping while leaving ANY steel piping in place is a prescription for disaster, as the copper will destroy the iron by galvanic action. Don't forget to replace shower risers, too.
Repiping specialists, working as teams, will repipe your entire house very rapidly. There are different techniques, depending on things such as how many floors are in your house; whether to use sweat fittings or friction fittings at stop valves, etc. Proper plumbing, at toilets, is to have the pipe protrude from the wall, but some repipers bring it up straight through the floor! If you are plumbing the house yourself, without experience, then you will have to have a powerful intuition for the ways that disaster might strike. For example, those feeder lines that extend from stop valves to toilets and faucets can fail. What will stop the water from flowing in the event of failure? Nothing! This has happened many times; I just wait to hear through the grapevine of some acquaintance who came home to a flood, due to aging and neglected toilet plumbing. Nowadays, nylon-braded or steel-braded flexible risers have replaced those notorious flexible brass tubes, which required a peripheral bead inside the retainer nut, to prevent mere water pressure from pushing the tube out of the stop valve. But gaskets eventually deteriorate, so such risers should be replaced eventually. Furthermore, you might damage something with your torch, at the outset.
One problem with copper, assuming you are using a torch to sweat joints, is to design the system to be repairable in the future. Therefore, you should make it possible to drain all water out of the piping, by gravity, in case you should ever want to reheat a joint. If any water lies in the pipe, anywhere near the location of your torch point, then that water will need to boil away before the copper will rise in temperature so that solder will melt.
You should consider installing standpipes behind toilet stalls, etc., where abrupt valve actions might cause water hammer. Sprinkler valves are even worse. This technique provides air cushion...shock absorption. But standpipes gradually fill with water, and are refreshed by draining your pipes occasionally.
Lay your system out so that one hose bib will still function, even if you have to shut all water pressure off inside the house.
Consider a loop with pump, for your hot water system. The pump need not operate all the time; there are clocked switches. It is imperative to insulate all hot water lines, ESPECIALLY a loop. Nowadays, with energy costs rising, more attention is drawn toward localized, instant hot water, rather than having a big tank hot all the time.
You might need to insulate cold water pipes, too, to mitigate the threat of freeze damage. Copper conducts heat much better than steel, and is thinner, so it is more VULNERABLE to freeze damage. If your house experiences cold winters, beware. There are approved methods of dealing with this threat. Don't overlook the need to replace your main feeder line, from the munipical water meter; that pipe must be kept below grade by some prescribed distance, and never allow fresh water pipes to lie beneath waste piping. Your inspector will help.
Copper pipe is assumed to last forever, but nothing is forever. The insides of hot water lines, in particular, coat with a mineral deposit, but such obstuction is minor compared to the degeneration manifested inside galvanized steel fresh water pipes. However, copper pipe, especially M, has been known to fail due to manufacturing defect; if sand is embedded in the copper at the time of extrusion, then any such grain of sand can become the site of a pinhole leak later. This has never happened to me; I have only heard about this sad story.
My condolences that your house had pressure piping in the slab. I've seen kitchen floors opened up to repair such problems, at great difficulty and expense. Metal waste piping fails, too, but the lifespan is usually considerably greater than steel fresh water piping.
Are you sure? You whine about every other plastic and now you say this is OK?
The only safe way to get water is to take a glass container to the well in the center of town and lower it in. Don't use a wooden cask as it can harbor bacteria.
If I was going to re-do plumbing, I'd consider Pex.
The difference between type K,L,M is the thickness of the wall. I've never seen type K in a home. My old home had the cheapest imported type M that ever was made; it developed pinhole leaks inside the walls after fifteen years or so.
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In my new (1920s) home, I've used type L for everything that I replace. The price difference is small and there's no labor difference.
Good scheme to go wall/ceiling. If you're where very cold weather occurs, you'll need to pay attention to insulation in the ceiling.
Rather than rigid "pipe" (either L or M), consider using soft copper tubing. That's available as Type "L" with the same OD (5/8") as 1/2" pipe. Much, much easier to pull thru tight spaces and avoids a lot of soldering/torch work inside spaces.
There is also PEX tubing, which is even easier to work with, but requires special tooling.
If this house was built in the 50's/60's, there is an even chance that the existing copper was used for electrical grounding purposes (sw boxes, recepts, fixtures). When you abandon the old connections, any grounds will be lost. If you know that all the wiring was done with Romex w/ground (as an example), then it's not an issue. Just a heads up.
Yeah, that reminds me. In closing my plumbing permit, the inspector saw to it that I had a "driven rod" supplementing my house's electrical ground. Of course, the electrical ground is also strapped to my copper cold water pipe, nearest the electrical panel. But the point is that closing a plumbing permit had ramifications on the electrical status of the house. That might not occur to a DIY who avoids the permitting process...resulting in negligence. I highly recommend the permitting process to DIYs, and to homeowners who hire contractors. The inspector becomes the advocate for the homeowner.
Conversely, proper installation of a hot water loop might require pulling an electrical permit, to run power to a new pump. The lack of electrical power discourages some homeowners.
I've never used the flexible stuff. I don't know if it's UPC-acceptable? Therefore, this becomes a question for the homeowner, even when employing a contractor. If inappropriate, it's best for homeowner to know, and prevent.
Intuitively, I can't imagine why soft, flexible copper would be prohibited. I would expect it's much more expensive. Isn't this stuff intended for air-conditioning systems?
Yeah, over the next 30 years while this is all being sorted out, I'll take comfort in drinking water from copper pipes. No suspicious organic chemicals like PVC present. And I appreciate the fine quality of the municipal water supply, and its annual report.
you are confusing occupational exposure to pvc (i.e. unprotected workers who make pvc - more profitable for the owners) with pvc used in plumbing
pvc used in plumbing presents no known health probems; though pvc is itself toxic, after being in use 3 weeks water delivered by pvc is free of any pvc
copper, on the other hand, used in plumbing definitely presents health problems to humans (noting per
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"However, my own dog had cancer and he was allways given water from the tap in the kitchen with copper pipes.")
google copper pipe cancer
copper pipe also causes schizophrenia in humans, as well as other problems, already covered in depth in this newsgroup and now available in the google archives
NO! Type L soft flexible is the type of pipe used for underground feeds from your water main. Also used in addition to air conditioning, such uses as oil line feeds for oil furnaces, natural and propane gas feed lines, and many other uses where rigid copper is not allowed.
I have read most of the replys and am just about lost in the vast number of options. So here is another 2 cent option.
In the HVAC/R business we use Type L soft copper for freon lines for the equipment. If we want to add just a little more thickiness to the wall of the tubing. We can use a Type K Soft Copper to add just a little more wall thickiness to prevent leaks and wearing of tubing leaks. The Type K & L will still use the regular Plumbing or Refrigeration type fittings and have to not changed anything. So I would just use Type K Soft Copper.
I just did some plumbing with PEX for the first time. It is the way to go. The plumbing supply house that I bought it and the fittings from rented me the tool to expand the tubing and pull the fittings into it. For the difference in price from copper you could afford to buy your own tool. I think the tool is around $175. PEX is replacing copper in a lot of new construction because of the ease of installation and cost.
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