tilted frost-free sillcock

Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.
The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level. All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.
If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.
(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C and 0^C.)
Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement, where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?
I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union, perhaps risking a leak there.
Thanks
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Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock.
The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe down 5 degrees as opposed to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level. All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.
If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift itself up? Clower to the center of the pipe.
(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C and 0^C.)
Maybe at the end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement, where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside when it's 68F outside.
I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way.
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wrote:

the only real problem installation - or leaving a hose attached.
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"micky" wrote in message
Inspired by Trader, I'm again looking into a frost-free sillcock, garden faucet, which is designed, by having the actual valve 3 to 9 inches inside the basement, not to freeze and crack open in cold weather.
The text and video pages seem to make a big deal out of tilting the pipe down 5 degrees (so that it will fully drain after it is use) as opposed to up 5 degrees. Up is not the alternative in my case, it is level. All the pipes are already there and the pipe that goes outside is level.
If I do nothing, the new sillcock will be level too. It seems to me that if the pipe I.D. is 1/2 inch, a level pipe will drain until the water level is no more than 1/8", 1/4 of the total diameter, and that even if it freezes then, it will expand UP into the air space. And that 1/8" of water, or even 3/16" with all that empty space above can't possibly freeze in a way that breaks the pipe. Won't it just lift itself up? Closer to the center of the pipe.
(I reed that water expands a bit more than 9% when cooling between 4^C and 0^C.)
Maybe at the inside end of the pipe, where the valve is, surface tension will keep the water level higher, but that will be 6" into my basement, where the temp is always about 68^. Can water freeze inside the pipe when it's 68F outside, and the pipe is metal?
I don't see how I can raise the other pipes to tip the sillcock down as it goes out of the house. IIRC, a floor joist is in the way. Plus it would put flex-tension on a right angle pipe or a straight union, perhaps risking a leak there.
Thanks ====================================================If the pipe is level then 1/8" of water will freeze in the bottom. then more water comes in, freezes and you'll have 1/4" of ice in the bottom. Then more water will enter the pipe and you'll have 3/8" ... AND SO ON. You are doing a grand job making excuses not to use the recommended 5 degree slope, but it's your home... <shrug> What CAN go wrong WILL go wrong.
-- Lord Androcles, Zeroth Earl of Medway
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On Saturday, January 11, 2014 7:29:52 AM UTC-5, Lord Androcles wrote:

More water can't get in unless the sillcock is leaking. If it's leaking, then it should be obvious, there is going to be water dripping out and it should be fixed. I'd definitely go with having it pitch slightly down. Those sillcocks have screw holes on the outside to fasten it to the wall. A lot of times, plumbers ignore them. If there is a little play in the pipe, just holding it down an 1/8" and using those screw holes to fasten it may give you the down slope. But if that's not possible and it's level, I wouldn't worry about it.
In fact, under the slowly filling with water scenario presented above, I think if it has a slow leak, it could freeze under the same scenario even if it's tipped slightly down. Slow drip comes out, trickles down hill and gets cold enough to turn to ice near the end. Water starts backing up and the process continues, similar to if there was no pitch, no?
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On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 12:29:52 -0000, "Lord Androcles"

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Unnamed wrote in message

============================================It's a pipe, it has water in it. What do I care where it comes from? <shrug>
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On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 20:13:19 -0000, "Lord Androcles"

water accumulation will cause a problem. Explain where the water you claim is going to cause a problem will come from.
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wrote in message

water accumulation will cause a problem. Explain where the water you claim is going to cause a problem will come from. ===========================================Leaking stopcock... what can go wrong will go wrong. I really don't give a shit, make all the excuses you want to not to do the job as recommended, it's not my house. *plonk*
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On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 20:53:31 -0000, "Lord Androcles"

about tipping them down - and I'm definitely in frost country.
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On Saturday, January 11, 2014 10:08:03 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Nor can I see why the same thing won't happen with a slow leak whether it's tipped down slightly or perfectly horizontal. If it's tipped down, the slowly dripping water will freeze as it nears the end of the sill-cock. As soon as you have about 1/8" of ice at the cold, outside end, it's going to behave exactly like a sill-cock that is tilted slightly downward. In either case the water continues to back up, freeze, etc.
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wrote in message

water accumulation will cause a problem. Explain where the water you claim is going to cause a problem will come from. ===========================================Leaking stopcock... what can go wrong will go wrong. I really don't give a shit, make all the excuses you want to not to do the job as recommended, it's not my house. *plonk*
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On 1/11/2014 3:53 PM, Lord Androcles wrote:

106 lines of text, to say that one person's posts won't appear on one PC. I guess usenet ain't what it used to be.
--
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Christopher A. Young
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Unnamed wrote in message

============================================It's a pipe, it has water in it. What do I care where it comes from? <shrug>
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On 1/11/2014 6:34 AM, micky wrote:

drum about the tilt. Can you make the hole a bit longer at the bottom, and caulk or foam the top where it's now open?
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On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 18:36:15 -0500, Stormin Mormon

instruction saying to point it down., just not to install vertically up.
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On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 22:09:42 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

That's good to know.
I don't think there were ANY instructions on the ones in HD, and it would have been a simple replacement if they didn't terminate in what looks like a male garden hose thread. So I looked at videos, most of which didnt' get to that but one had me making up a 3-piece connector to go from female threads, to tubing, to a straight union. And 2 or 3 videos wanted it tipped down. I don't remember text-only bringing that up.
My current valve is 34 years old and doesn't leak at all. I only use it a half-dozen times a year, and in the first 4 years, the previous owner, known as the Berry-man to the neighbors, probably used it 6 days a week in spring and summer. All my valves that I almost never use work fine. There's no reason to think the new one here will leak in the next 30 years.
Maybe I'll be able to point it down a degree or two, as Chris sort of suggested. Right now it's not screwed to the bricks at all, and I think I like it like that better than a big hole with lead anchors, but I can fill in the hole at the top a little and let it harden before. putting the valve in.
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On Saturday, January 11, 2014 10:58:07 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:

I've used a couple dabs of construction adhesive to secure them to brick. I agree I would not drill holes for anchor screws. And shoot some caulk or expanding foam to close up the hole so cold wind can't blow in.
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On Sun, 12 Jan 2014 05:46:07 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

for the pipe (not the same hole as I don't want for screws.)

Okay

Okay. No air coming in now, and I want to keep it that way. (I would notice a draft when I turn off and on the water from the inside), either because of a bunch of pink fiberglass stuffed in there, or because it's caulked on the outside, or both. Thanks.
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Well that's no good. Maybe I should buy the valve somewhere else.
Or just forget the whole thing. Now that I know I can get replacement drain caps (waste caps), I don't have to worry about ruining the old one with Channel-locks.

It doesn't look special. OTOH, the new ones look like they went to some fancy Eastern prep school.
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