telephone wiring HELP needed !

[Beowulf]

Any help greatly appreciated! I had phone service reactivated to my home (giving up cell phone)-- the phone line (black) comes into my wall to my basement rafter, consists of two plain wires that each connect to a pole (bolt with nut) on a thing that is connected to a basement rafter.

Ok, so I know I connect the wires from the phone lines to those two poles where the main line comes in, but is the order important? What I mean is, I know phones generally only need only two lines, such as green and red, for usage, so I attach the gree and red wires to each of the two poles of the thing on the rafter, but does it matter which pole gets red and which gets the green?

Also, the modular phone jacks have terminals for green, red, black, and yellow, which I connect, but are the black and yellow really needed if only green and red are attached to the main pole terminal on the basement rafter? And if the black and yellow are needed, is their order of attachment on the main pole terminal important, and should the black go with the green, and the yellow with the red?

I appreciate any help, I am having one hell of a time getting this sorted out, in part because of the phone company-- they hooked my up to my house, I had a dial tone, then 5 minutes later the line went dead; there was no dial tone at the "Demarc(ation) box" phone jack so I know the problem for now is on their end. Their repair is coming back to check for a short etc at the main box. But once they confirm a dial tone at the box I am on my own, frustrating and I want to understand this to get my phones working once I have a signal from the phone company.

Thank you in advance, Randall

[Pop]

See ====> inline:

====> It depends on a lot of things, but mixing them up would -probably- never be noticed. Keep red to red and green to green and you should never have a problem. FWIW, with the phone hung up, the red lead should be negative w/r to the green wire. There's a bout a 99% chance the wires coming in from the telco will have that DC polarity correct, but when things seem 'funny' it's worth checking out. If the wires were reversed, it will NOT cause any damage to anything. The worst would likely happen is some really cheap phone equipment might not count the incoming ringing voltage properly since it's 90Vac riding on top of 48V DC. I'd be surprised if you ever noticed it, though since equipment hasn't been that cheaply made in some time. It takes all of 4 cheap diodes to make the equipment immune to polarity of the wires .

====> No, not for standard, plain old telephone service. You can cut them off even with the jacket if you wish to get them out of the way. Only the two wires are necessary. Actually, some people use the other two wires for intercoms, things like that. But you don't need them.

And if the black and yellow are needed, is their order of

====> IFF you had a key system or something that used them, rather than just plain old service like you probably have, it would matter. For some systems, there ARE uses for those wires but you're not likely to have that type if you're just wiring up plain old telephones.

====> Just for grins, when you checked it at the "demarc", did you make sure you had YOUR house wiring disconnected? To be certain, always disconnect the house wiring from the demarc before testing. Also, don't let them come into your house without telling them you are NOT authorizing any charges of any kind for them. I let one clown in thru my garage doors once, and he looked up at the box on the way by, and commented on the neat wiring job. I received a BILL for "inside services" from the telco! They didn't get away with it!

Their repair is coming back to check for a short etc

====> Repair -should- do exactly what you did: disconnect the house wiring, and then put their butt-set on it to see if there's dialtone there and that the voltage is in spec. If it's not, the problem will be on their lines somewhere between where they connected the butt-set and the telco. They do NOT have to go into your house for any of that. If they go inside, then you're likely going to get charged for it, even if all they do is tell you that there's a short "somewhere" in your wiring.

But once they confirm a dial tone at the box I am on my

====> Well, you don't -have- to be on your own. They'll probably be glad to fix it, but it's going to cost you. So, you're doing the right thing.

frustrating and I want to understand this to get my phones working

Best of luck, & HTH,

Pop

>

[Eric Tonks]

Try -----------

[Beowulf]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 18:55:55 -0400, Eric Tonks inscribed to the world:

..

I actually read through info at that website before I posted here, but that website did not answer the questions I asked here, or I did not see those answers.

[Rich256]

Have your taken a look at one of the many web sites about telephone wiring?

[Beowulf]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 22:30:03 +0000, Pop inscribed to the world: ...

Do you mean keep all the red wires from the inside phone lines on the same pole/terminal of the (not sure what to call it) junction box, and the green wires on the other terminal?

You lost me at hello. :)

Ok i will just use the green and red wires where I connect them to the junction/terminal poles on my basement rafter (where the main phone line's two wires attach to those two poles [bolts with nuts])

ok i did not know that.

...

Good to know, I will keep them out of my house!

[Beowulf]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 23:05:27 +0000, Rich256 inscribed to the world: ..

Yes, actually I had looked at and printed out all three of those websites before posting here. The info at those sites was mostly over my head, beyond my wiring needs, did not answer some real basics that I asked here, but I did glean some useful info, mostly about the need for just red and green, that is a 2-wire system is all I need for my simply home phones.

[mm]

In answer to a question I had here I learned that thing is the surge bypasser or surpressor (probably not its real name. I forget that.)

Yes. I've heard it is different on (some?) later phones, but on real phones, Western Electric phones**, and those that are good imitations, if you don't have red and green right, you can talk and listen but on touch-tone, you can't dial.

**Western Electric are the phones that God intended, and are the actual phones used in Heaven.

All the others are Satanic.

If I anticpated failure, or if I were using the wire for something that required more amperage, that's what I would do. That's what I do do. I might leave the black and yellow unconnected now. If I were running new wire, I might run more than 4-conductor. Part of my house, from 1979 already, is run with 20 conductor wire, anticpating whatever they invent next.

If you had a dial tone before, you'll have one when they fix their end. If you can't dial, because it's backwards, and you did the red to red thing (btw, you can see red and green inthe modular wires themselves. Just look close.) I'd reverse things in the basement if aiui, there are no colors indicated on that thing you mentioned.

Certainly you should call yourself, or have someone else do it, after you are connected. You should test everything after a big change like here.

[mm]

Hope I'm not horning in on POP, but on the theory that beow will try to finish this tonight: Yes, and at the other end of the wire, say it's a wall plate, connect the red wire from the 4-conductor wire to the screw that is connected to the short red wire that goes to one of the spring wires in the socket that the modular cord plugs into.

And if you ever make your own modular cords, make sure that the red is the second from the left (or third, I don't remember) when the modular plug is held with its tang on the top side (or the bottom, I don't remmember, but compare with the end another modular cord and do it the same way.)

I would put it: If the phone worked fully before the phone company broke it, you had it right, so it is still right.

OK that's not the same thing, and I can't say exactly what was meant .

Right. That thing has room for plenty of wires.

In my case, that is automatic, because I have to unplug the house before I can plug in a phone. Don't iknow about other cases.

In Verizon in Baltimore, I just wanted to get a radio station filter, which iiuc, are free if you are having problems, but there was NO way to talk to someone at the repair number. It asked some automated questions, and said "they might call before they came". Now my description made it pretty clear the problem was in the house, but they didn't say they would call first, and I was afraid to complete the signuup.

A while later I got closer to the problem -- too complicated to describe -- and I think when I clean things up, it will probably go away.

Wow.

OTOH, Verizon here actually spent 90 minutes fixing a problem for a nearby friend, including what I didn't see but was a burned out wire under the large size wall-phone plate in the kitchen, and they didn't charge him anything. Apparently he thought a phone line surge broke the wire, even though they have a surge suppressor in the basement, and according to my friend's wife, they didn't touch that.

[Joey]

I don't think I read here where anyone answered your question about the other two wires. They are for a second line so you won't need them.

Stick with the green/red all throughout your house but I would like to add a few things to help you out.

First, they make a cheap led tester that you can plug in an outlet to let you know if the polarity is reversed. What happens if you leave it that way--well some phones just won't dial--no tone.

Second, it's best to run a line from the terminal block to each phone in your house. Reason for this is if one gets shorted you can keep disconnecting the lines until you find the bad one and over time you will get a bad one or shorted line for various reasons.

J

Beowulf wrote:

[Jim Redelfs]

No.

Polarity was important MANY years ago but no longer.

No.

POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) uses a PAIR of copper wires to do their thing. Extra pairs are just that: Extra. They are there in case trouble develops with the original (red/green) pair. They are also available should a SECOND phone line be needed.

Yes.

Honestly, though: This, too, doesn't matter.

Many old-time phone techs may disagree but, many years ago, I located the actual B.S.P. (Bell System Practice) that identified black as a TIP color and yellow as a RING color.

I wouldn't be so sure. If it was working OK to start, then it failed, I would NOT expect trouble outside. Rather, you were plugging and un-plugging phones and otherwise messing with the system. Odds are the trouble IS inside your home.

Of course, if you have a properly installed, official N.I.D. (Network Interface Device) serving your home, you used a KNOWN-GOOD phone, and there is NO DIAL TONE when plugged-in at the NID, the trouble is NOT inside.

Good luck.

[Jim Redelfs]

It is a "protector".

That is an old-fashioned term surely coming from the very earliest days of telephony in the late 1800s.

It's a vague term by today's standards, however. The protector used still today will NOT provide any protection from the "transients" (voltage surges) that traverse utility lines CONSTANTLY. But when all this was invented and deployed, the old, black rotary telephones didn't CARE about transients. They were built like Mac trucks and lasted forever.

The new stuff today that is plugged-into the phone line is different. They are equipped with a simple "chip" that took the place of the old, copper-wound network that was surge resistant. The newer "chips" aren't so forgiving.

Even so, one should avoid using common, "surge bar" plug strips with input/output jacks for your phone line ahead of a DSL modem. They have been known to interrupt the DSL signal.

The protector, ostensibly present at the customer end of EVERY cable pair will, however, keep your house from burning down in the event of a SERIOUS surge (lightning striking nearby, power line falling across phone line, etc). However, in the event of a DIRECT lightning strike, ALL bets are OFF.

This is SOOO funny. Of course, you are correct!

After the breakup of The Bell System in 1984 and the resulting proliferation of Cheapie Chirper phones hanging from a peg at the local Target, folks have forgotten what a *REAL* telephone is like.

Give me a 2500 (Touchtone desk telephone) or give me a drink!

[Bob Vaughan]

I seem to recall that as well.. the cool colors (green, black) were tip, and the warm colors (red, yellow) were ring.. but that only applies to quad.. (pardon me: D-station wire)

In the standard 5 X 5 color matrix, the tip colors are: white, red, black, yellow, violet the ring colors are: blue, orange, green, brown, slate

starting with the first tip color, and the first ring color, and incrementing ring color, then tip color, you get 25 pairs.

[barbarow]

Color coding used to be simple just remember Christmas ( red and green = line one ) and Halloween ( black 7 yellow = line 2)

[Beowulf]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:12:52 -0500, Jim Redelfs inscribed to the world: ..

No dial tone at NID jack, used a brand new AT&T corded phone I bought at hardware store (just so I would know a test phone was good), and the wire form the NID serving my home is just a black insulated wire with two plain copper wires that attach to two poles/bolts on a thing my basement rafter. So with no dial tone at the NID box outside, seems it must be something at the NID box. Telepone co. is supposed to come today again to fix this, I will be curious to find out.

[Beowulf]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:53:19 -0400, Joey inscribed to the world: ...

Yup, I bought one of those too yesterday, put it in the modular jack of the NID box and no light at all.

..

That seems to be the setup, I think it is called star topology from what I read. Whoever wired the phones before did it that way. Right now, I have disconnected ALL the phone lines from the terminal on the basement rafter (supplied by NID/Demarc box from outside phone line box), and just connected a simple 5 foot long phone line I made yesterday with new phone copper wire and a simple modular plug and a simple cheap corded phone, used red and green copper wires attached each to one of the terminal poles on the basement rafter (supplied by NID line from the box outside).

[Thomas Daniel Horne]

If you feel the side of the black drop wire that runs between the NID and the protector on your basement rafter you will find that one side of it is ridged.

The old time lineman's limerick was:

The ring is ridged or red, readable to ground, and it terminates on the right.

So the red wires from your inside wiring terminate on the right hand side of your old protector if the ridged side of that drop wire is terminated on that side. If the protector is not mounted vertically with the drop wires terminated on the left and right then you should ask more questions. Keeping the polarity of those wires consistent will help you with trouble shooting later. If you ever add a second telephone line or install an intercom you will need the black and yellow wires so instead of cutting them off the best practice is to wrap them back around the cable jacket so they remain available if needed.

[Jim Redelfs]

Ding! (Give that man a cigar)

Light Olive-Gray Quad. It was from the actual Western Electric printing on the D-station wire carton that I learned the proper way to "tin" the end of a conductor and connect it without pinching (in the threads) to the binding post. It is a technique that I have used for years and still use today.

Why Run Backward You Varmint

There was a catchy phrase for these but it was never important to remember because the actual colors, used so regularly, quickly became as basic as red/green, yellow/black had been (and still is).

You should see what it takes to repair 1800-pairs when a directional boring bit "spears" the cable dead center - and clear through. Call before you dig.

[Beowulf]

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:53:21 -0500, Beowulf inscribed to the world: ...

I have phone tone! Phones working now, hell of a mystery. Turns out the phone line from the street to the NIC/Demarc box was bad, corroded, the phone company had to string in a whole new phone line from the pole to the outside NIC box! The temporary (30-60 second) usage I had, i.e. dial tone, yesterday, was just from static electricity left in the line that allowed a temporary dial tone. They put in a new line from the street and all is working now. Thank you for your help everybody! I have learned a great deal about phone wiring, etc.!

[Jim Redelfs]

From what I've read, the NID was a retrofit using a section of the old, aerial drop wire to make the jump from the NID outside to the old protector location in the joist downstairs. This is very typical.

It is certainly possible and very LIKELY that the old protector downstairs is still providing the circuit protection that, had the retrofit been done properly, would be done by new protectors inside the NID box outside. This can be determined by the presence (or lack thereof) of a 10-gauge copper ground wire running to the telco-side of the NID outside.

If there ISN'T a ground wire to the NID (there should be), and especially if the service is still fed with an aerial drop, the old protector in the basement is still necessary for its circuit protection.

Knowing what I know (and do for a living), and YOU now know, I would request that my service be upgraded with a properly grounded and protected NID. The connection point (former protector) in the basement would remain ONLY as a simple connection point.

Not necessary. At this point, that old wire should be replaced.

With a NID outside (grounded or not), the "jump" between the NID and the old protector downstairs, currently an *OLD* hunk of brittle drop wire, needs to be changed-out with modern, twisted pair station wire.

Only if your 20-year-old Western Electric desk set's Touchtone keypad quit Touchtone-ing. The first, few generations of Touchtone telephones were engineer so that, with the polarity of the pair being "proper", the phone would full work. With the polarity of the pair REVERSED, the keypad on the phone quit working. You could ANSWER the phone but could not make calls. I suspect this may have been a "feature" rather than a bug in the interest of keeping things as complicated as possible to discourage the public from messing with their phones and phone service - an illegal practice for almost

100 years.

Polarity (red or green? It doesn't matter) hasn't been important for years. I wasn't sad to see the issue go away. Our Central Office MDF (Main Distributing Frame) still has quite a number of "reversing" heatcoils - made specifically to reverse a line for the use of Touchtone!

Good advise. Always cut it LONG. If it's too long, you can always cut off some more. If you start out cutting it too short, you can't make it longer and it's REALLY hard to work on.