Tapping into an electric circuit

On Saturday 12 January 2013 18:24 snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in alt.home.repair:

Like these:

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If so - oh dear... I have used them in a car, in the old days. But they have no place in house wiring.

Possible slight confusion?

Ring circuits are for sockets and make a peculiar (but valid if conditions are met) claim that you can use nominal 20A rated cable for a 32A protected circuit based on there being 2 paths back to the fuse box.

Lighting, in the UK, has always bee "tree wired" - ie one or two cables leav ethe fuse/breaker and then branch all around the place until every subcircuit on a lighting circuit has been fed.

I'm curious - do you really bring 5-15 cables back to the fusebox for a single lighting circuit if you have 5-15 switched sets of lights? Or do you put a lot less lights on a single breaker?

Me: I'm running with 2 circuits (pretty normal for a UK house), both 10A (regs permit 6A, 10A and 16A - 6A is most common, and 16A is usually for commercial premises).

Curiously, if you go back to even the 1980's in England, (change was between the 15th to 16th Editions of the regs IIRC) not every point on a lighting circuit needed an earth provided *unless* the fitted was Class I (ie earthed). This of course was a bugger if a double insulated fitting was swapped out and a Class I installed.

OK - thanks for that. Pretty much the same then.

Reply to
Tim Watts
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Well, that's just not so--soldering has been acceptable by NEC since the git-go w/ the provision as above mentioned of mechanically sound irrespective of the solder.

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Reply to
dpb

No, not like that at all - but just as useless, in my opinion

My house has a small panel - it's only got 16 circuits. 2 of those feed the range, 2 feed the drier, 2 for the AC, So 10 15 amp circuits left.for the rest of the house. Not sure what the code limit is now as far as how many lights or outlets on a circuit, but there are about 25 outlets and lights combined in the house, plus 2 exterior oulets and 2 exteriour lights, plus the garage.

A typical circuit would run cable from breaker to an outlet, on to another outlet, then on to a couple of lights, with drop switches - or on to a couple of light switches, feeding one or two lights per switch.

2 10 amp circuits in UK provide the same power as 1 20 amp circuit in America.. No way you would ever get away with that little power in an American or Canadian home.
Reply to
clare

OK - allowed in the USA - not allowed in the areas of Canada I am familliar with. Soldered was allowed/required with H&T wiring - not allowed with non-metallic sheathed cable.

Reply to
clare

On Saturday 12 January 2013 21:01 snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in alt.home.repair:

Ah - so your lighting and socket circuits are combined. Think I've seen something similar in Switzerland.

In which case it makes sense. Our word for that type of socket circuit is "radial" (to differenciate it from "ring"). It is a permitted circuit, usually 16A or 20A but can be done at 32A, but the required cable size becomes prohibitive at 32A. However, we would never combine lighting at sockets on the same circuit - although by the regs, it could be done with a

16A breaker - but never is.

A typical old style house would have 2 lighting circuits (lighting only plus odd things like bathroom extractor fans) - one upstairs, one downstairs.

Then typically 2 32A ring circuits - upstairs and downstairs.

Then a cooker circuit, another for shower etc.

My house, done to my own design and wired by me (I hold some qualifications and the correct test instrument, so my building inspector is happy for me to sign my own work off) has:

2 indoor lighting circuits at 10A each, north end and south end

4 32A rings for sockets

1 45A circuit for backup heating (if gas boiler fails)

1 10A outdoor lighting (RCD/GFCI more likely to trip due to bugs and damp)

1 16A "radial" for a couple of outdoor sockets (own circuit fo rsam ereason as above).

1 32A workshop (well, big shed) supply, if I ever get around to it.

That's fed off a 100A 230V incomer.

Reply to
Tim Watts

I once asked two independent insurance adjusters if insurers would deny such a claim. Neither one hesitated before saying "They'd pay."

I've been all over my homeowner's policy. The only clause that might allow them to deny such a claim would be if they could establish it was deliberate with the goal of burning the house down.

Please write down the date and time. This is an event unlikely to occur ever again. The three of us agreeing on something.

-- Doug

Reply to
Douglas Johnson

snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca submitted this idea :

2 X 10 amps in UK = 2 x 10 x 230 = 4600 Watts

1 X 20 amps in US = 1 x 20 x 120 = 2400 Watts

According to my calculator. :-?

Reply to
John G

Sorry - I meant one 10 amp circuit in UK provides same power as 1 20 amp in USA, and NO WAY would you get away with that little power ( 2 circuits) in a house in USA or Canada.

Reply to
clare

On Sunday 13 January 2013 04:40 snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in alt.home.repair:

That was just lighting (in the UK example).

Reply to
Tim Watts

de quoted text -

Not to spoil the moment, but I can think of one potential line of argument to deny a claim. Typically homeowners insurance doesn't cover criminal acts that you commit. They could argue that the electrical circuit you added without a permit that was done incorrectly was a violation of the law. But I'm not sure it meets the level of a true criminal act. And they would have to prove that it was the cause of the loss, etc.

Claims may in fact have been denied for work that was done incorrectly by a homeowner, without a permit, etc., somewhere, sometime. But if it's happened, funny that the folks that keep bringing this up don't have cases to show us. If they do, I'd be happy to see them.

Reply to
trader4

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I, for one, would not be happy to see them.

I'm quite happy believing that all of the upgrades I've done to my electrical system are not going to come back and bite me should I ever, God forbid, have to put in a fire related claim.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

quoted text -

It is not a criminal act. Infraction crime.

Citation needed.

Reply to
krw

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Why? How would you know all the building code laws and penalties across the USA? You can clearly be prosecuted in court for building code violations. If convicted, they can certainly fine you and I would think in certain circumstances they could probably impose a jail sentence. What exactly does it take to make something a criminal act? Let's take an extreme example. Let's say somebody runs their own gas line, using garden hose. The house blows up, killing

2 children. Might they not be charged with manslaughter? Isn't that a criminal act?

And note again, I'm not saying this routinely happens in insurance cases, where a claim is denied because the homeowner did work that caused say a fire, that was done wrong, without a permit. I agree, if it happens it must be rare because no one here seems able to find an example.

Reply to
trader4

Insufficient even for lighting in MANY North American homes. - but as I noted, here there is no such thing as a "lighting circuit" in MOST cases. The only time you would have a "lighting circuit" would be if you had massive Low Voltage Control or dimmer panels - basically theatre lighting.

Reply to
clare

air:

What exactly is a lighting circuit? If it's just a circuit that has only lights on it, then it's not all that unusual,' is it? You could add a circuit to run 4 outside flood lights for example. I agree most circuits you're going to find don't have just lights, but it's not all that unusual either or limited to the the couple of cases given.

Reply to
trader4

On Sunday 13 January 2013 18:23 snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in alt.home.repair:

Blimey - what do you run - kW halogen tubes?? ;->

That's very useful to know. When all you've seen is lighting cicuits seperate from sockets, it's not obvious that it's not the only way :)

Reply to
Tim Watts

Not uncommon to have 10 50 watt halogen pots in one room (family room, for instance) and 300 watts or more in the kitchen, plus 15 or more 30 watt bulbs in a dining chandelier (another 450 watts +/-) and

100 watts or more in each of, say, 3 bedrooms - then another 120 watts or more at the vanity in each of 2 or 3 bathrooms, Add hall lighting, and front (1 60 watt at the door and 2 75watt floods at the garage) and rear entry (3 75 watt floods) exterior lighting, plus lighting in the living room,and den - plus pssibly a home office or sewing/crafts room and you have 2 15 amp lighting circuits more than maxed out add 'em up, - since each 15 amp circuit is only good for 1440 watts maximum (80% of rated load) . There is a maximum of 12 lights per 15 amp circuit according to code Code also requires a minimum of 1 15 amp circuit per 600 sq feet of floor area - for mixed mode circuits. As an Electrician, my late father planned for a maximum of 8 "loads" per circuit - that was lamp fixtures or outlets - didn't matter.
Reply to
clare

Huh? I have several lighting circuits and am adding more.

Reply to
krw

Hide quoted text -

Show me one that is a felony. You can't.

Go back to sleep. You might find someone there who wants to argue with you for the sake of arguing.

Citation, or STFU.

Reply to
krw

Maybe I'm missing your meaning of "lighting circuit".

Many workshops are wired with the lights on their own circuit. Keeps the place from going dark when a piece of power equipment pops the breaker. That's how I wired mine. I put in a dedicated circuit for the shop lights so nothing but a complete power failure will leave me stumbling around in a dark workshop.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

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