Tapping into a main lugs connection .

[trader_4]

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 3:09:23 PM UTC-4, [e-mail] wr ote:

At this sub panel I have tapped into the main supply lugs to run a feed to another sub panel that is 3 feet from the first sub panel . The 2nd sub pa nel is one breaker supplied for a hot tub at 30 amps ...Wire size and break ers is not in dispute, what a home inspector stated was to tap from the mai n lugs was not ok I should have used a junction connection some were else o ther than the lug connections there was plenty of room in each lug connecto r and they tightened correctly and all the wiring passed , in dispute is th e method of connection for the 2nd sub panel. I had been told by a "electri cian" that junction connections simply have to be contained and were it is connected it certainly is contained .Any thoughts?

Not sure that you understand what he says he has:

"I have a sub panel that is on a 30 amp breaker feed from the main panel. A t this sub panel I have tapped into the main supply lugs to run a feed to a nother sub panel that is 3 feet from the first sub panel . The 2nd sub pane l is one breaker supplied for a hot tub at 30 amps ."

My translation of that is he has a main panel with a 30A breaker that feeds a subpanel, call it "B". AT that B panel, there is a tap at the main supply lugs which feeds to another panel for the SPA, call that the SPA panel. This is nuts, IMO. There is only a 30A breaker supplying subpanel B and the SPA panel? It would seem a typical SPA is 30A plus by itself. What other loads/breakers are in in Panel B?

Aside from that I'm in agreement that it would seem it's only NEC compliant if Panel B is listed for two wires under those lugs.

[billybobbobrob]

l. At this sub panel I have tapped into the main supply lugs to run a feed to another sub panel that is 3 feet from the first sub panel . The 2nd sub panel is one breaker supplied for a hot tub at 30 amps ...Wire size and bre akers is not in dispute, what a home inspector stated was to tap from the m ain lugs was not ok I should have used a junction connection some were else other than the lug connections there was plenty of room in each lug connec tor and they tightened correctly and all the wiring passed , in dispute is the method of connection for the 2nd sub panel. I had been told by a "elect rician" that junction connections simply have to be contained and were it i s connected it certainly is contained .Any thoughts?

At this sub panel I have tapped into the main supply lugs to run a feed to another sub panel that is 3 feet from the first sub panel . The 2nd sub pa nel is one breaker supplied for a hot tub at 30 amps ."

pulled the cover off it does say that multiple wires can be used at the lug s providing they are the same size and the same type.. and they are mirror images of one another....panel be has lights breakers in it and no breaker is over 15 amps and there are a couple of outlet plugs on it as well, B pan el also states it can have up to 8 hands or breakers on it. the hot tub is actually rated at 15 amps and was power load tested at the main meter to d raw 14 amps and dropping to 11 when powered on. we have a smart meter that can show actual amps draw and such. With all other breakers off but the su b panel feed the test was done . lights on the sub panel circuits are LED low amp that draw 6 to 25 watts for each breaker in the sub panel. I did fi nd some humor in this that in the notes or specs on the sub panel it states that if in the city of New York that panels rating is reduced to 100 amps , any were else it is rated at 125 amps. The hot tub in its control panel h as fuses rated at 15 and 20 amps that got to the heater and to the motor .H ere is something else I remember the electrician said that set this system up are far was what panels and breakers to buy.

10 ga wire is 30 amps its on a 30 amp breaker feeding to that sub panel, it would not matter if I had 300 15 amp breakers in that sub panel the 30 amp breaker protects that feed line and like your house you can add up 500 amp s or more worth of breakers in your main box , on a 125 amp service..

..doesn't mean anything. what matters is the protection factors on the wire s loads .If the correct breakers are in place for size of wiring runs by si zes and correct amp breakers like the 30 amp is the normal for a 10 ga wire , then in fact everything is legit there is no breaker in the sub panel B b ox that exceeds 15 amps , and the only real reason the other sub for the ho t tub is there is for emergency disconnect at the hot tub itself. The build ing inspector stated that it would be a waste of breaker space to double br eaker it for a 3 ft run.... also further is that this has been in place for 10 years and never has a breaker been tripped ....and yes the permit with the specs was posted next to the box when this home inspector showed up.... ..he said "well, building inspectors can make mistakes too".....

[clare]

From what he seamed to be saying he WAS feeding his first sub from a

30 amp 2 pole breaker. The confusion comes at the second panel, where he appears to feed a third breaker box from the lugs of the second - -

- but then mabee we are ALL confused. Not sure the OP knows what his question is any more.

[clare]

My main feed is only good for 125 amps - I just went out and checked my panel - I could not put a 150 amp panel in - which would have given me more choice. To put in a larger service would have required about $4000 in trenching to install the new feed to the transformer vault out on the street. (all underground wiring) tHE HOUSE IS 40 YEARS OLD

- AND WITH NO ELECTRIC HEAT 100 AMPS ID plenty FOR A 1350 SQ FT HOUSE WITH ALL THE LOW-POWER OPTIONS AVAILABLE TODAY.

[dpb]

On 09/14/2016 4:54 PM, [e-mail] wrote: ...

Yeah, but that wasn't necessarily the case in Kaliforniay or many other places in the US back then.

Again, IT WAS AN PRESUMPTION BASED ON US EXPERIENCE, not a statement of fact, get over it.

[billybobbobrob]

the question was about using the lugs on the 125 sub panel as a junction point ? connection point for the for the hot tub disconnect , and through the other posts I found out the panel does state you can have multiple wires on those main lugs

[dpb]

On 09/14/2016 4:46 PM, billybobbobrob wrote: ...

The main power lugs say that?!?!!! I'd like to see a photo of that; I don't believe ever seen it....on breakers, yes, not on the main lugs.

What's the panel make/model; should be able to find it if it's not too terribly old and oddball.

[billybobbobrob]

The lugs or screws I was talking about are NOT on a breaker but the incoming lugs that the wires attach to feed the panel or the service wire attachment points

[billybobbobrob]

model is cultler- hammer BR48L revision C UL file E8741 California Compliant revision C and it says no more than 2 wires at each incoming service lug

[dpb]

On 09/14/2016 5:11 PM, billybobbobrob wrote: ...

That we grok; but noted that can't recall ever seeing such.

[clare]

I'm over it. The caps were not intended - I accidentally hit the caps-lock key

[clare]

I saw the last post - which does make it legal (but I think I'd likely go with another breaker). Those lugs are designed for heavier wires so the chance of the 2 wires shifting or making a poor connection over time are a bit higher.

[clare]

They do exist - not terribly common and I have not seen a Canadian certified one in a long time - might not pass the stricter CSA requirements up here.

[clare]

I have also seen breaker panels with provision to bolt 2 lugs to each buss.. One wire per lug, one lug per bolt.

[dpb]

On 09/14/2016 7:07 PM, [e-mail] wrote: ...

I found catalog for the BR series boxes; they note passthru lugs on some but only 200A service and above.

I didn't find any details on the lug connections in the info I did find so can't confirm/deny the actual configuration at the moment.

[Terry Coombs]

Jumping in a little late here , but can you move that 30 amp breaker into the breaker box and put just a disconnect in the location near the tub ? Solves the inspector's complaint and fulfills code requirements for the disconnect close by .

[dpb]

On 09/15/2016 7:54 AM, Terry Coombs wrote: ...

That'd seem to have been the obvious solution from the git-go unless (as I surmised to Clare's apparently eternal consternation) the box were already full...

Altho I'd presume unless they're already in use there are slimline breakers available for that box that could be substituted to create room for one additional albeit at the cost of the extra breakers...

Question: Would a double pole switch qualify as the disconnect or does it have to be an actual disconnect box (albeit they're not _that_ expensive, granted).

[dpb]

Actually, more closely akin to the discussion at the time, we were pondering the adding the additional lug kit if were available and I hypothesized the box _might_ have some age on it...

Also, somewhere back in the original discussion OP mentioned the inspector thought since the distance was so short having the separate breaker and another disconnect so close was overkill and in "doing a favor" then created the issue now...

_IF_ the box lugs are truly as OP has subsequently described and are listed as he says, it would seem that that should have been apparent to the current inspector and if it weren't simply making that point known would resolve his responsibility to meet need.

Now, just because it is "good enough" doesn't imply the potential buyer won't still ask for all the points on the inspection report to be resolved as contingency in any offer to buy and one can negotiate on a point-by-point basis or simply refuse certain points and see what happens or just deal with it to close the sale.

I had a bizarre request on the house in TN--we had installed a ground-loop heat pump and used a thermistor in line with the backup resistance heat element control to prevent them from coming on before roughly 15F outdoor temperatures as the unit had the capacity to keep up but the vendor logic would kick in instaneously on a 2F difference from setpoint which was too tight. The inspection was done during warm weather so he noted the emergency heat elements didn't kick on and didn't bother to ask or look to see why...the explanation didn't seem to register with the buyer and we were in KS by then so I just had them bypass the thermistor to close the deal and let the buyer pay the 'lectric bills when they came. I don't know if they ever did put it back or not...

Anyways, this may well be in Code; it apparently passed the required local inspection and yet it may be expedient to just do what they want similarly if need to get the place sold...