Tankless water heaters

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I stopped at Home Depot yesterday and asked about a tankless water heater. The salesman told me that they don't carry them because they are undependable and the parts are very expensive. That was the first time I had heard that. How about anyone else?
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says... :) We probably take 6 showers a day, do 3 or 4 loads of laundry and run the :) dishwasher at least once and we have ONE 50 gallon water heater. It does the :) job fine. :) :) Ya missed the word "tankless" :) I'm too interested in comments on their performance.
--
Lar

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Harry-
Your HW usage is so low, I would consider electric even though it's more expensive to operate in the long run. For efficiency & low operating cost gas tankless is hard to beat.
Capital & installation costs for gas tankless, in your case, would be much higher.
I have a ranch style with WH near the kitchen / laundry & a medium ~70 ft run to bathrooms.
I'm just about to repipe. My plan is leave the WH location unchanged, run a timer controlled hot water loop to a remote manifold near the bathrooms.
In your case, you've got to decide what you're trying to do:
1) Improve performance (hot water w/o waiting) 2) Minimize equipment & installation costs 3) Minimize operating costs
IMO you cannot do all three perfectly
Best compromise, your suggestion. One WH with a timer & temperature controlled insulated loop to the kitchen. (this would nbe my choice)
Or two point of use electrics
Or electric in the kitchen & tank WH for bathrooms
cheers Bob
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This is Turtle.
I have not seen any Electric Tankless hot water tanks in use and can not speak on them. Now I have seen the Natural gas hot water tanks in use and if I had one it would be natural gas or propane tankless hot water tanks. They have models to handle 3 showers at one time at any temperaure of 180F down to 70F water and never run short or change the water temperature not one degree. it will supply the hot water till the cow come home. It has a thermostat on each heater to set the temperature exactly what temperature water you want. Also you can just use all hot water and get the exact temperature of water you want and not have to play with the cold water to get the temperature set right. Just turn on all hot water and then take a shower for you have the temperature of water you want. The temperature of the water can be change with just a pushing of a button on the wall. Also this cut out any water temperature changing of the show water when someone turn on the cold water or flushes a commode. the water stay the same temperature in all cases. They have heating ability of the water from 1,500 btu up to 200,000 btus. Also they have units to fit on outside walls or in the place of you regular hot water tank. If you can install a regular gas hot water tank, you can install a tankless hot water tank.
Here is a look at one brand to see about them and the one that i have seen run. http://www.foreverhotwater.com /
Also you will need most of your 200 amp service to equal the hot water needs of the natural gas tankless heaters. You would need 160 amps real draw to get 200,000 btus to heat the water with and require 2 -- 100 or 1 -- 200 amp breakers. You may need bigger electric service to your home for this set up.
Now cost saving verses other forms of hot water , you will have to read about it at the website above.
TURTLE
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Harry you have asked this before, have you even tried to do your own research in any way or even run any numbers on operating costs and payback or instalation? I dought it since you are asking the same questions again.
As I see your situation you want 2 units because of the length of the house and you have 2. Your utility company will pay you 450$US for Each electric you junk and convert to gas, right, 900$ US. You pay more per btu for electric than gas, If I remember right your figure was near double per btu to use electricity. And that makes sence as your utility is giving a rebate since logicly its profits with electric are poor. So why consider electric?
If you did any research you would see a single use Bosch needs a 120 amp circuit, So your 200A panel may not handle even One unit when you load the house, definatly not 2. And I am talking a small single shower electric tankless. So why consider electric?
Keep electric and no 900$ rebate, So why electric?
Rinnai gas is 87% efficient 5% better than Bosch or Takagi and more feature laden and perhaps better warranty and exterior freeze protection.
You realy have to run your own numbers , you have options, only you can figure them out.
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Harry I like your questions but you must be senile because you had complete answers before. Google and you shall find.
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snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (m Ransley) wrote:

Dear Ramsey - Stop being a net nanny :-) If you do not like my posts - do not respond. Sure I post similar stuff on here again and again. I value collecting other opinions about the topic that I post. It seems that others like to talk about the subject I post. Which is worse? Me posting similar questions about home repair topics or you posting about net nanny stuff and telling me to go look it up myself? :-) I have looked it up myself already - but I value "like" opinions of others - if they can stick to the topic - "tankless water heaters." Give it a try okay? :-) Turtle just gave me excellent advice - so have others - you gave me nothing. Harry Now do you like the Rennai or the Bosch or the Akagi? Can you justify all the upfront expense of the tankless over just a 40 gallon gas heater? Can you justify a point of use unit in the kitchen versus running 100 feet of pipe and waiting for hot water? I value your opinion on the topic. :-) I am retired. I am senile. I have more money and time than I know what to do with. I enjoy the banter - ON TOPIC :-) Senile old retired Harry.
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snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (m Ransley) wrote:

Sorry - I agree with you - I am senile :-) Harry
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wrote:

Gotcha.
I wasn't questioning your idea. Just curious WHY you had 2.
I've been thinking of converting myself for hot water and to suplement my heatpump (via a duct coil), but natural gas is not available in my neighborhood and propane prices are rediculous here.
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I will be re-piping my home soon and have been studying tankless water heaters for several months as an option. Ransley, do you have any practical experience with the Rinnai (use one, know someone who is using one, etc.)? I have not found much independent information on this brand.
NOTE - I wander a bit after this, if you are in a hurry you can stop reading now!
I have talked with three local plumbers and poured through hundreds of Google results and found it difficult, once I make groupings of similar models, to accurately compare the models and brands.
I have found that often those who have worked with the low-end models will not recomend them as being an economical alternative, while those who have worked with higher end brands and models are really sold on the products.
Of course, most of the people who are offering advice are promoting the models that bring them the most profit, so I am always supicious of what I hear.
Regarding electric vs. gas - heating water on demand takes a lot of energy, and it is likely that you will need to upgrade your energy source either way. In my case the gas line to my house is large enough - 3/4" lines, but from the meter I have 1/2" lines which are not enough. Our old NG tank heater is in the far side of our garage, 60' from the gas meter and about 50' from the kitchen and baths. I can make space for a tankless between the kitchen and baths and be about 10 feet from the meter and all of the 6 main points of usage, and only the clothes washer in the garage will have long run.
An electric tankless would need a service upgrade and a long power line run. It would be much more expensive than installing the NG model. For me NG is the best power source.
Now, I have some more questions! One of the big advantages touted for tankless is that you heat water to just the temperature you need, as you need it. The ability to deliver water to multiple points is also supposed to be an important consideration. If we are running a shower (at say 105 degrees) and the dishwasher (at 150 degrees) then the heater must be set at 150 and the shower will need to have cold water mixed in, which eliminates the advantages of efficiency and constantly controlled temps for the shower! So the question to someone who has lived with a tankless is - how often do conflicts like this actually occur?
I have heard that although Bosch runs as low as half the cost of better brands, it is not a bargin. The Noritz is the highest initial cost I've looked at, but some apartment owners and a condo developer who use them are very happy with regards to ease of installation, reliability and efficiency when in use, and ease of repairs when they are needed. I really have no other independent opinions. I've read what the manufacturer and dealers have to say about the Tagali and Rinnai but have not found any independent opinions on these brands.
Again, if you have any experience with tankless I think that we all would like to hear from you on this thread!
    Grant Q
Harry Everhart wrote:

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Grant, I have the small 117000btu bosch battery ignition and a nieghbor has a Rinnai, and a builder I know uses them alot . I am completly happy as my neighbor and friend are with tankless . My unit needed 1/2 gas pipe but is within the 10ft limit my neighbor uses 3/4. I got the small Bosch because I have one shower but it could do 2 with restrictive heads. It is a 117000 btu unit vs 180000 for Takagi-Rinnai . Rinnai is 5% more efficient than Takagi-Bosch at 87 vs 82-83%. My Bosch was apx 500 not including labor. Had I done research I would have gone Rinnai with the remote thermostat and the heat to temp design vs the heat to a temp rise design of Bosch, 5% increased efficiency, and lower minimun btu for heating hotter summer water, in summer I actualy find minimum setting to high and close down the gas valve to give me the heat I want , and many other features.
I took out a double insulated good 5 yr old Rheem 40 gallon tank and was paying 25-30 electric now I pay 6$ in gas in the midwest, so I will get a 4-5 yr payback. My Bosch is great it doesn`t even need 120v it uses 2 D cells for ignition and works well [ 2 yrs on regular Duracells]. Yes Rinnai and the larger Bosch [made by Takagi ] cost more as they are 2-3 shower units,
Heating depnds on incomming water temps as in winter my water goes to a low of 34 it won`t heat obviously as much as when water is 70f. I dont know if you are considering the small Bosch a cheap unit , I don`t consider it so in design and operation, just less features and btu.
Put your tankless near the meter 3/4 should be enough, but have someone use a Manometer to check flow to specs needed for the tankless, consider moving the clothes washer.
My dishwasher heats its water itself and will not turn on till it reaches its desired temp. Running your house at 150 for the diswasher is a waste of energy and not necessasry for many dishwashers. I run mine for efficiency on heating water for a hot water only shower, apx 106-108f , 105 at the shower head This will save you alot in energy.
I don`t know your utility costs but electric is more expensive for apx 98% of the nation, for me I pay 1$ a therm NG and convert to 3.2$ a therm for electric, so my electric costs are many times higher per btu than gas. Also a small Bosch single shower electric unit takes a 120 A circuit, for most again electric is impracticle in load needed on panel and operating costs.
The small Bosch is a bargain at 500 if you have 1 shower, but as I said there are many more features you get in Rinnai. If you need 150f for the diswasher you have a remote mounted thermostat, probly mounted in the bath or kitchen. But your washer may now have a preheat circuit and you are not aware of it, or get one, my Kitchen Aid probably will heat cold water but I never tried it.
Im pretty sure you need a certified Rinnai installer for the Rinnai warranty, but thought out and done right you will see your payback and be happy.
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Another simple and low cost option that at least partially solves getting hot water at the end of long runs quickly is one of the small circulating pumps. There are ones available that mount under a sink or nearby the point of use. The pump has either a wall mounted push button or a remote that when activated, starts the pump. The pump moves water from the hot water line back into the cold water line, until it detects that hot water is present, then it shuts off. And they work pretty quick.
There are other solutions available that keep the water constantly circulating, but those will obviously waste more energy.
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snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (m Ransley) wrote:

Dear Ransley - Thanks for the great post on tankless water heaters - you swing me toward the Rennai. Harry
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Does anyone have any experience with the Waiwela by Paloma? http://www.tanklesswaterheaters.com/waiwelaph28ri.html
Cheers, Wayne
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The Paloma gooks good but much more expensive than Rinnai and 3% less efficient
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Anybody know why I shouldn't replace my old NG water heater with a tankless other than the higher cost?
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galietta snipped-for-privacy@emc-dot-com.no-spam.invalid (GALIER) wrote:

I am in the same market. I am waiting for a gas installer - they seem to be independent folks :-) I have chosen a Rennai Tankless - expensive - but efficient. I currently have two electric water heaters and the city here gives you $450 to replace an electric with a gas heater. In my case - it is more important to me to move the water heater from 90 feet away to right next to my bathrooms. I do not like waiting 2 minutes for hot water in my shower or sinks. They seem to be and elegant install. I went to see one at a local restaurant. It is a small box - 2 x 2 x 1 feet - that hangs on the outside wall. No vents are needed because it will be outside. It igniter runs by battery. Just two coppers and one gas pipe go to it. My gas meter is just 3 feet away.
Harry
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GALIER wrote:

I would start by asking you way you want to?
On the list of possible issues is the question of how familiar your local plumbers are with the system.
--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit
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On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:20:59 GMT, "Joseph Meehan"

On a related note, conventional HW heaters are so easy to replace that if you should have a failure, you can have a new one installed before the end of the day in most urban areas.
If you tankless needs parts or a replacement, can you feel confident that it will be up and running with a minimum of downtime?
In some applications, restaurants and other businesses, that could be a critical factor.
Beachcomber
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Depending where you leave, the water temperature may be too cold for the system. You should inquire on this.
Eric.

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