Sump pumps -- GFCI required?

Page 4 of 5  
wrote:

Good question. My own inclination would be to replace that dedicated duplex sump pump outlet with a single twist lock outlet and plug so that if someone decided to use that outlet for something else, it would be incompatible with normal plugs. Whether they would remember to reconnect the twist lock plug to the outlet after discovering that fact is anyone's guess. (-:
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Bobby G.



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On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:31:32 -0500, "Robert Green"

All 120v 15 & 20a receptacles in those areas require GFCI whether they are twist lock or not. If it is that important to you, buy a 240v pump.
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<stuff snipped>

I am not sure I understand your comment. Twist locks, in my experience, can be used for both 110 and 220v applications. I see them listed for 110v use:
Leviton 2311 Locking Plug, 20A, 125V, L5-20P, 2P3W
https://www.platt.com/platt-electric-supply/Nema-Twistlock-Plugs-20-Amp-Plugs/Leviton/2311/product.aspx?zpid 1638
Whether or not the NEC approves of them for 120v applications is another story I am not able to comment on other than I use them in several places in my house and as I recall, they passed inspection (quite some time ago).
I made the suggestion re: twist locks to specifically deal with someone who might unplug the sump pump to use for say a vacuum cleaner and then forgets to reconnect the sump. Having once had a cleaning lady who plugged a 10A cannister vac into a UPS outlet, there's merit in preventing people from doing things like that. (-:
Or, as I reread what you wrote, are you saying that a 240v pump obviates the need for a GFCI?
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Bobby G.









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On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 07:43:44 -0500, "Robert Green"

There are specific twist lock configurations for each combination of voltage and current, all having specific NEMA configuration numbers which I included in my original recommendation - so yes, twist locks ARE allowed by the NEC for 120 volt use.

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<stuff snipped>

Good to know since I have some ceiling outlets that are Hubbells (all I remember) that I believed to be codeworthy when installed. Thanks.
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On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 07:43:44 -0500, "Robert Green"

Yes, that was where I was going. A twist lock will not relieve the need for a GFCI but it only applies to 15 & 20a 120v receptacles

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OK - I got it. Thanks for the reply. I would (and do) use twist-locks on all 240v gear and the 120v outlets that are ceiling mounted and power specific items (not necessarily dedicated but items like a radial arm saw).
FWIW, I saw my first twist lock connector on an old portable tube radio circa 1940 my dad had that had two different types of batteries and came in a folding wood case. He had rigged up some sort of AC power for the unit using a twist-lock connector which kind of negated its portability. As I recall the price of the high voltage battery made operating the unit an expensive proposition. Replaced many years later by one of the first Sony shirt-pocket portable AM radios powered by a more affordable 9vdc cell.
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Bobby G.



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I really don't give a damn if it's "required" - I don't want the sump pump disabled due to the GFCI tripping. If it came down to it I'd temporarily install a GFCI receptacle for an "inspection" then remove it afterwards.
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wrote:

I might have agreed with you ten years ago when GFCI devices were still "growing up." I had a lot of nuisance trips using some Slater GFCI's I got at Hechinger's (George should know them!).
I've got Leviton 20A GFCI's just about everywhere and haven't had one trip since the gardener tried to repair the extension cord he had just hedge-clippered in half with a pen-knife and masking tape. Needless to say he failed his audition . . .
I can see the sump being on a non-GFCI outlet when no one's home. However, the combination of water, electricity and many times sloppy Chinese pump manufacturing still make me want the protection of a GFCI on anything that contacts groundwater. I would run it a long time "under test" to make sure I could trust it if we were away on vacation.
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On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 11:57:41 -0500, "Robert Green"

Of course with pedestal style pumps, the electricity is more than a foot above the water, the motor and the swich and anything else.
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wrote:

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Everyone knows it's ground-hole pointed south to take advantage of the coriolis effect, at least in the northern hemisphere. Helps the electrons drain more quickly. (-: My Monster Cable sales rep told me! <sarcasm alert>
On a serious note, I assume GFCI's have saved *some* lives but I've yet to come up with a site that even hazards a guess how many lives have been saved. One site said "countless" and that might be the closest estimate because it seems no one has counted them. Even harder to come by seem to be any figures relating the number of nuisance trips one can expect. My own anecdotal evidence strongly suggests nuisance trips are much reduced from GFCI designs of ten years ago, but it's just one data point. Where's Danny D? If anyone could find those numbers, I'd bet on him. I seem to recall others here making similar observations about decreasing nuisance trip rates.
I suspect that the NEC has been changed to reflect the better designs of modern GFCIs as the exceptions to where they are not needed seem to be disappearing.
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On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:13:18 -0500, "Robert Green"

I have seen lots of conversation about this but there is no actual code language about it. On argument is if the ground is up and the cover comes loose it will hit the ground pin but that is not enough to drive a code change. There also does not seem to be any consensus of how the cord should hang (pin up or down ref the direction of the cord on a flat plug) I have examples of both here.
The only thing that is somewhat a convention is that switched receptacles are installed in the opposite orientation from the unswitched ones. That makes sense as long as the user understands it.
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On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:34:15 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

practice of "splitting" an outlet and switching only one half - allowing you yo use the outlet for something that stays on as well as a lamp you switch - all in the same box.
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On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 13:45:24 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

If the receptacle is inverted you would still see it was different than the rest, whether that is "half hot" or the whole thing. Then the question is which one do you switch? I like the logic that the top is hot and the bottom switched since that will usually be the lamp you don't move around and the top is available for portable equipment.
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On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 10:19:47 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster

embossed printing in the plastic front is right side up in that orientation.
Here in Ontario I would venture to guess over 90% are installed U down, neutral left.
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wrote:

install twist-lock receptacles and plugs to make it clear it is DEDICATED to the specialized equipment with the matching plugs. (assuming there are no other outlets or devices on the circuit)
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On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 00:20:09 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I am not sure about what happens in the Great White North but in the US those "dedicated outlet" exceptions are all gone and have been for the last 3 cycles. The only exceptions now are for "ice melting equipment" outside and alarm systems inside (basements crawl spaces etc)
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On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 01:02:20 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Thanks all.
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On Sat, 12 Dec 2015 01:02:20 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

there and wired before the exemptions dissappeared the exemption still stands - and doing as I suggested WILL pass a "condition inspection"
I just had a "condition inspection", called an "e-safe" for insurance purposes here last month, and up here they have complicated things. The ESA (Electrical safety Authority)enforces the common electrical code, which would grandfather GFCI and AF requirements, but the new e-safe regulations are implemented under the CSA (Canadian Standards Association) which over-rides the code and requires GFCI for all outlets within 6 feet of a faucet or sink and all exterior outlets under something like 8 feet (2.5 meters) from the ground.
Unfinished basements and attached garages (not sure about detatched since I don't have one) do not require GFCI and nor do "dedicated outlets" for refrigerators and other devices - which do not need to be "dedicated circuits"
So, on one circuit with a bathroom outlet, a refrigerator and an outdoor outlet, there are 2 GFCI outlets and one standard outlet on the same circuit. This passed E-Safe inspection in November (and yes, I did need to pull a permit to install the GFCI outlets) Up here ANY work on aluminum wire, including like for like replacements of switches, outlets, and luminaires requires a permit.
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