Square D electrical panel question

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On 10/03/2016 14:43, trader_4 wrote:

Doesn't Mc D use tightly fitted lids on their coffee in drive throughs? I agree with Mr Macaw, that she was negligent.
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Managing to spill it on her vagina showed she was doing something stupid with it. The only time I've ever spilt any liquid in my lap was when I've been drinking it and coughed, in which case I wouldn't have been drinking it when it was too hot. Why didn't she just leave it to cool somewhere? How hard can it be to have two brain cells? How do these people work out how to reproduce?
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Why did she receive money for being an idiot? Coffee is hot. This is a well known fact. Has she never made any herself? If anybody sued me for something that petty, I'd seriously consider killing them in revenge.
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I'm in a two bedroomed semi detached house (two houses in one building). I have 49 square metres = 527 square feet. Plus the garage which is being converted into living space, which is 18 square metres = 194 square feet. Before I removed two internal walls to make a much larger room, I was constantly cursing about bumping into things it was so damn small.

The other claim is it saves money to only heat what you need, but I don't believe that. If it's winter, the heat escaping from the tank simply heats the house anyway. If it's summer, you don't use much hot water anyway.

Nothing wrinkles after being in a dryer, but I don't use a dryer, it costs a fortune in electricity. I thought you meant there was a fabric that wouldn't be creased after being hung up to dry?
I heard the phrase permanent press 20 years ago, then it disappeared, so either we don't use it, or everything is.

And how do you know which outlet is on which circuit?
On that note, we have a stupid thing which is allowed in our code. Double outlets - two 13A sockets in one unit. But they can only handle 20 amps total! So if you run two 13A devices from it, you overload it and it melts. Only a few MK (a quality manufacturer) sockets are rated at the correct 26A.

Doesn't that exceed the abilities of the contacts?

You must have clever breakers, how does it add the current to three different sockets on different voltages and possibly different phases?

What a crazy thing to do. If you prevent the stupid people from killing themselves, the stupid gene continues into the next generation.

On her vagina no less. While balancing it and trying to drive at the same time. She should have been done for dangerous driving and got no compensation at all. If I was McDonalds, I'd be making the coffee stone cold, and putting a warning on the cup saying, "Due to fuckwits like Mrs Liebeck, this coffee is cold. If you don't like it, phone [insert Mrs Liebeck's number]".

I bet that would really confuse an inspector :-)
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On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:49:55 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:

Where would you want to put it, the living room? Here we generally have an area that set up for the washer, eg water faucets to screw the hoses onto, drain for it, and then the dryer goes right next to it, with a 240V receptacle provided. The dryers are also vented outside, so if you can move yours around, what do they do with the venting?

Takes just a few minutes. Not a problem really. While it's warming up there is usually something else that can be done at the same time, right there.

Permanent press clothes and taking things like dress shirts to the cleaners.

We have multiple 15A or 20A 120V circuits for receptacles and/or lights. Many circuits have both on them. How many circuits depends on the size of the house. But having 12 to 20 of them isn't unusual.
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A different part of the kitchen / utility room / garage .....

The dryer needs no water supply, so doesn't have to be there. For example I've got the washing machine and dishwasher in the kitchen near the sink, so they take the same water, but there's no room for a dryer aswell. The cooker and fridge are also in the same area for convenience when cooking.

Most dryers have a condenser nowadays, if they don't you can fit one (simply a small tub of water the hot air goes through).

Bad idea, you forget the iron is on!

What is a permanent press clothe?

That's a lot of wiring.
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On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 10:41:43 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"

There are no 240 volt "outlets" in a typical north american home. Only high current items such as driers and ranges run on 240 volts - and they have specific connectors for the amperage of the appliance. A range uses a different plug than a drier., and those connectors are installed only where that specific appliance will be installed.

It is NOT for convenience, but for safety. Running extention cords everywhere is not safe. Particularly running them across doorways under carpets.

Out tea kettles are generally 120 volt and 1500 watts, +/- and can heat a cup of water for tea in about 45 seconds to 2 minutes.
Heating a quart takes a bit longer - and some heat faster than others.

Portable heaters generally run 1500 watts on high, and 750 or 850 on low. Irons are generally 1200 watts. They do not heat up immediately, but mabee the "colonials" have a bit more patience then folks from "the old country"

The average north american home has a minimum of 100 amp service - with very many having 200 amp, and others 120 and 150. Some large homes have multiple 200 or 400 amp services.
60 amp is pretty well obsolete now and is nefer installed in a new building. All of our fuses are AFTER the meter.

Here we don't generally use "widow-maker" showers - and washing machines and dishwashers generally use hot water from the central water heater (tank type or more recently in more numbers, tankless "on demand " heaters. Dish washers sometimes have a built-in heater for the "sanitize" cycle.

And current code requires several 20 amp circuits for the kitchen.

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So rearranging your house is a bugger then. No thanks.

Oh deary deary me. Just look where you're going perhaps?
Do you know what I love doing in supermarkets when they put yellow signs up saying "danger wet floor"? Fall over them. It really confuses the health and softy morons.

So if more than one of you wants a cup, or you want a large mug of coffee, you have to wait 5 minutes? That is unacceptable.

Good enough to maintain a room temperature, but useless for heating one up in under a decade, or drying out something very wet.

Which doesn't protect the meter. Mind you, it would make it harder to steal electricity.

I had to look that up, and got this image:
https://theuntilmatters.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/widow-maker2.jpg
Although ours don't look like that, those ones are cheap shit you get on campsites, ours do heat the water with electricity, in a box on the wall. Why would you think that was dangerous?

Now you see that's convenience not safety.
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On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 6:18:03 PM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:

I've lived in a lot of houses and never had the need to rearrange where a 240V appliance was. The only typical appliances like that which are on receptacles are electric dryers and stoves/ovens/ranges. Never seen the need to put the dryer or stove in a different spot. And if I did, the dryer is almost always right next to the washer. The washer needs water lines, a drain. The dryer needs a vent to the outside. Don't the ones in the UK vent outside? I'm just not feeling the need to be able to plug my dryer in anywere in the house. And a lot of people have gas dryers too. Should we put gas outlets all through the house too, in case someone wants to dry their clothes in the living room, while they fire up their turkey fryer there too?

It doesn't take 5 mins to do a cup at 120V. I can do a liter in a little more than that. If you really want it fast, we have instant hot water dispensers that you can install under the sink. They have a tank, ~ 1/2 gal, that is constantly hot. I stated previously that I agree having 240V for that would be nice, it would cut down the time. But I think you're way over doing how important it is.

Please. It doesn't take a decade to heat up a room. Also, as pointed out previously, few people use them that way. We mostly have central heat. Some people, not many thought, use them to supplement that in one room, so they can keep the rest of the house set lower.

I agree with that part. I assumed what you meant was an on demand, point-of-use type water heater. They are safe, as long as they are correctly installed.

It's both. Unless you think having an electric fryer, electric kettle, etc on cords running God knows where, that can be tripped over, run to a non-GFCI outlet, etc is safe. And "convenience" is a stretch. I'd say it's "functionality" and safety.
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According to the laws of physics, 10C water to boiling with a 1500W heating element is 4 minutes 12 seconds.
I'm thinking of say three people having a mug of coffee. That seems to take far too long even with a 3000W kettle. But then I get annoyed waiting for a microwave oven to cook my food.... I think the problem lies with computers getting faster and faster, but the rest of life doesn't.

Or just use the hot tap on the sink, from your gas boiler.

I'm very impatient. To see this for yourself, try driving in front of me.

It does. I'd say 3kW is a reasonable amount of power to heat a medium sized room.

Do you not have thermostatic radiator valves? Or more room stats with zoned valves?

Yes, our showers are, but they're more substantial, like this: http://www.mirashowers.co.uk/onlinecatalog/results.htm?sectionName=Electric%20showers

Not along the worktop they can't. And I look where I'm going anyway. When did the whole world become blind?

Odd, the whole house has GFCI here. Except mine, I can't be bothered with that shit, I have the original fusebox installed in 1979. It works. It never trips and annoys me. I'd rather say ouch than have to go and reset it.
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On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 10:18:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:

All the common everyday appliances, eg microwave, electric kettle, lamps, vacuums, are 120V here and those are the only outlets distributed around the house. 240V is used for electric dryers and ovens and it's about the only place you'd find a 240V receptacle in a typical house. Some might have it for some shop type gear, in their basement, garage etc too.

That is part of safety. Having sufficient receptacles within a given distance means that people are less likely to run extension cords which are a known hazard, for example.

~1.5KW is what they are. I would agree, 240V for that would be real sweet. Still the 120V electric kettle can heat it faster than using the range and more efficiently.

They too are limited to ~1500W. There are some that require a 20A circuit, have a different plug, but those are the exception, not typical.

Same here. If nat gas is available, it's by far the most economical. Electric is usually most expensive. We've found a tremendous amount of new nat gas in the last decade or so.
Showers, washing machines, and dishwashers tend to heat their own water, so those and a tumble dryer (our weather is very damp) are about the only things that wil use much.

Here shower and washing machine, in vast majority of cases, don't heat their own water. Electric dryers do and are on a 240V receptacle.
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So your vacuum must have quite a beefy cord on it. Our vacuums typically use 5 amps, the the flex is quite flexible.

I wasn't aware America was over the top on safety. An extension cord is not a hazard, what do you think it's going to do? Catch fire for no reason?

I find the 3kW one too slow if it's full.

I think ours is all from the North Sea, which being in Scotland I'm right next to.

Do you still have those washing machines like I saw on a TV show once, where the detergent is dispensed automatically fro a big tank above it?
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On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 11:41:06 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:

They don't seem beefy to me. I don't see why a small electric motor at 240V would use 5 amps. A 1 hp motor uses about 7. Even my shop type vac has a cord that I'd say is about the size of a pencil.

They are actually the source of a lot of fires. People put them under carpets for example, where they get rubbed, frayed. Or they take a minimal gauge cord and plug 6 things into it. Or they string together several short ones, that aren't in the greatest shape, etc. Plus they are a trip hazard. Plugging a hot plate or similar in on an extension, you could trip on the extension and have a hot pot of water land on you.

I can see that. The 120V one here I used to heat about a liter of water to make coffee or tea. If I need more water than that, I do it on the stove. I agree having a 240V electric kettle would be a very handy thing. I never thought about it until you brought it up. Maybe we can get something started here, put in 240V receptacles for new kitchens. I'd like it.

I've never seen those. Trend now is to more front loaders. There the detergent goes into a reservoir at the top of the machine, but I think it's loaded for each use.
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They just do. They're rated at around a kW. Decent ones more than that. We haven't used pathetic little 350W motors for about 40 years.

I had a shopvac, it was at least a kW.

Not along the edge they don't, and who would have a lump across the middle of their room?

Never heard of a fuse?

Don't people watch where they're going anymore? When did this silly phrase "trip hazard" get invented? If you're going to claim to have evolved to walk on two feet, you need to watch where they go.

Nothing to stop you putting in 240V sockets in your kitchen, then buying a UK kettle from Ebay etc.

Actually, the only program I can remember it on was "Home Improvement", so maybe it was his invention!
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The typical vacuum here is rated at 2HP with some kind of phony rating system but they usually do pull 10a or so. That makes it comparable to what you are talking about. Some actually approach that maximum 1440w that you can legally put on a 15a circuit. Since these things are manufactured for an international market I bet they perform about the same. They do make special cords that are "vacuum rated" and I think that is basically that they use higher temp insulation rating since it is still a pretty small cord. They do run warm to the touch.

I have had a number of shop vacs and, side by side, there are plenty of canister vacs used inside the home that are stronger and blow harder than the 2 shop vacs I have (what I was testing). That is the same thing though, since this is still just an air pump. That shop vac is only special because of the bigger hopper and that some can handle a bit of water.

They do not fuse plugs here, except for cheap asian christmas lights with wire that is less than a mm (20 ga)

This is becoming a nanny state. You can' do anything without bumping into laws about helmets, seat belts, guard rails etc. A damned ladder has to have about 15 labels warning of bad things that happen if you actually climb up it.

Absolutely true. I admit, if I was actually boiling that much water, I would do it. We can buy a duplex outlet that has 240 and 120 in the same device and the 240 side would not even have to be GFCI (RCD). Since it is required to have two 120v circuits serving the counter top it would be trivial to bring that from both sides of the center tap with a neutral and split it right there for your two required 120v circuits. I was impressed by the 240v kettles in New Zealand but once I got home, I realized, we don't drink tea. Coffee makers work fine on 120 and most do not even approach the 1440w available. A drip maker can just "drip" so fast without overloading the filter pan. Even the big commercial units are still 120v and commercial kitchens always have 240 available.
I guess the bottom line is this side of the pond is 120v and it is going to stay that way. We seem to get by.
OK now explain why you drive on the wrong side of the road ;-)
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On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 3:17:39 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
...snip...

...snip...
It's less about overloading the filter pan and more about "contact time".
If the water drips through too fast, the taste will be affected. Unfortunately, with most home drip systems, you are at the mercy of the machine's drip rate.
SWMBO and I bought a $300 Breville unit for each other as a Christmas gift. You can adjust the brew strength by adjusting the contact time. It makes a really great cup of coffee, but it has too many features and too many parts to clean to be convenient for everyday use. We ended up going back to our basic drip machine, sacrificing some flavor for ease of use.
Stolen without permission from:
http://www.ncausa.org/About-Coffee/How-to-Brew-Coffee
Brewing Time
The amount of time that the water is in contact with the coffee grounds is another important flavor factor.
In a drip system, the contact time should be approximately 5 minutes. If you are making your coffee using a plunger pot, the contact time should be 2-4 minutes. Espresso has an especially brief brew time -- the coffee is in contact with the water for only 20-30 seconds.
If you're not happy with the taste, it's possible that you're either over- extracting (the brew time is too long) or under-extracting (the brew time is too short). Experiment with the contact time until the taste suits you perfectly.
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Never heard of instant coffee? Boil water, add a spoon of powder, stir, add milk.
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On 3/12/2016 11:05 AM, Mr Macaw wrote:

Make it de-caf, and add home made creamer, for me.
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On 03/12/2016 12:32 PM, Muggles wrote:
[snip]

I never liked hot drinks very much. Lip and tongue pain doesn't seem that enjoyable.
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On 3/12/2016 3:37 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:

Does it help to figure out where to put the ground cable?
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