Square D electrical panel question

Page 12 of 15  
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 7:04:52 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

The Birdman is an idiot. Just reading some of the stuff he says in this thread should make me laugh, but it's just so, so sad.

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On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 16:37:37 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03

I only see the idiot's posts when someone replies to him. He's definitely a barmy git who's totally lost the plot, as they say - and as daft as a bush to boot. - a real wazzock fer sure.
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On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 8:22:10 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

At the rate you're blocking people, pretty soon you'll just be talking to yourself. Which helps explain why you're wrong so often. You just listen to yourself.
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What do you expect from a gay Canadian?
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That's because you don't have a clue how to operate a killfile. I can killfile a person and every reply to it underneath ad infinitum.
--
The world record for a talking bird is 1728 words by a budgerigar named Puck, having the same vocabulary as an estate agent.

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I'm not a wimpy pessimist. And I've had about 6 240V shocks. None of them killed me funnily enough, yet people worry about getting only one.
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My point was 30mA could be achieved just as easily with 120V. Making it higher than enough to kill you doesn't matter.
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On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 6:54:16 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:

30ma can't be achieved just as easily with 120V as with 240V. The human body has resistance, tap water has resistance, etc. Under the same conditions where 30ma is going through you at 240V, you'd only have about half that at 120V.
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I disagree. The resistance isn't enough to get anything like as low as 30mA with either voltage. Why do you think circuit breakers manage to trip when you touch live and earth? They need 30mA to trip.
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On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:02:12 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:

IDK what you're talking about now. For starters, circuit breakers don't trip when you touch live and earth, unless it is a GFCI breaker, which are the less common type and only required in certain applications. Second, per Ohms law, the higher the voltage in a given circuit, the higher the current. A human body, together with the rest of the circuit that completes it, has some resistance value. With a higher voltage, you will have higher current flowing, ergo it's easier to get to your 30ma.
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Of course that's the type I'm talking about, hence me referring to 30mA, not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why wouldn't it be? This is why I use fuses.

My point is both voltages will easily exceed 30mA. If they didn't, those GFCI breakers would never trip. Killing you with 120mA is no worse than killing you with 60mA.
I just measured my resistance from hand to hand (the most likely path to get through the heart). 50kohm with wet hands, 500kohm with dry hands. At 120V, that's 2mA wet and 0.2mA dry. At 240V, that's 5mA wet and 0.5mA dry. No wonder I've never stopped my heart. It's impossible. The body has way more resistance than I thought. And I was squeezing as hard as I could for a good contact.
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On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 9:21:20 AM UTC-5, Mr Macaw wrote:
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120V.

ng it higher than enough to kill you doesn't matter.

s 30mA with either voltage. Why do you think circuit breakers manage to tr ip when you touch live and earth? They need 30mA to trip.

s.

not 15A. In the UK, the whole house is protected by such things, why would n't it be? This is why I use fuses.

If you're using fuses, why are you talking about GFCI? Of all the circuit breakers in the world, only a small fraction are GFCI.

As stated previously, it depends on the resistance of the entire circuit, including human body. Will it exceed 30ma in most cases, whether it's 120V or 240V, probably. But that doesn't change the fact that more current will flow at 240V than at 120V. Where with one you could have 30ma, with the other you could have 60ma and the higher it is, the worse it is. Capiche?

120mA is no worse than killing you with 60mA.
Why do you keep going back to GFCI all the time?

get through the heart). 50kohm with wet hands, 500kohm with dry hands. At 120V, that's 2mA wet and 0.2mA dry. At 240V, that's 5mA wet and 0.5mA dry . No wonder I've never stopped my heart. It's impossible. The body has w ay more resistance than I thought. And I was squeezing as hard as I could for a good contact.

Following that faulty logic, no one would ever be electrocuted by 120V, 240V, etc. There would be no need for GFCI. Yet it happens all the time.
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I'm using fuses but most people here use GFCI. All breakers are GFCI, or if you're a cheapskate, you have a GFCI or two master breaker which cuts off all the others. Why invent a "life saving" device then only use it here and there?

No, as you stated 30mA would kill you. Dying twice is no worse than dying once.

Because they prove that 30mA is attainable by touching live and ground with your body.

No it doesn't. You need a very weak heart to die, most hearts will restart automatically as soon as the power is removed. And I'm not convinced about the 30mA, perhaps with a weak heart you can die with a few mA, or people manage to get power going into their chest and not their hands.
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You folks are talking apples, oranges and pomegranates
In UK, Oz and NZ they have an RCD that looks for ground faults in the range of 30ma and disconnect the whole panel. This is a typical NZ panel. The red breaker is the main, the blue the RCD and the rest are branch circuit breakers.
In the US we only protect single branch circuits or individual loads with a GFCI but that is at 5ma. When we see 30ma protection, it is called "ground fault protection for equipment" because we think 30ma is too high to protect people. One thing you must keep in mind is 5ma might not kill you but it can still cause you to fall off the ladder.
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On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 11:08:30 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
Forgot the picture

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/New%20Zealand/Wangatui/Panel%20board.jpg

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The ones I've seen don't have the superfluous red one. The blue one is used to switch everything off, aswell as interrupt if there's 30mA to earth. They've started putting in more than one blue one, hence you don't cut the whole house off when someone gets a shock, eg. you don't get put in the dark when you get a shock.
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Forgot to mention, non-cheapskates get combined current limit breakers and earth leakage breakers, so every circuit has its own protection for both.
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On 10/03/2016 16:35, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Then use battery or petrol driven tools up a ladder.
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[Imagines somebody with spilt petrol catching fire up a ladder]
I always opt for battery tools, mainly so the cord isn't in my way, or not long enough.
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These days battery tools are becoming quite capable but it was not that long ago that you needed a cord or air to get enough power to be useful. In some cases I still prefer air tools, like working on the dock.
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