Splicing #14 wire, hot to neutral ratios....

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On 11/7/2009 11:51 AM Robert Green spake thus:

That's 'zactly right.
Being 180° out of phase, any current running in one leg of the circuit will be cancelled by any current in the other leg. The amount of cancellation depends on the amount of current being drawn in each leg. The highest current possible in the shared neutral will be when only one leg is drawing maximum current. If both legs draw maximum current, then the current in the neutral is close to zero. In this case, the majority of the current flow is through the two "hot" wires.
Very clever idea. However, for reasons given here many times, I think Edison circuits are to be avoided, on account of the potential problems they can cause.
Spend the extra 25 cents and use paired hots and neutrals.
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blowing Wall Street, using the media as a condom?
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Electric water heaters have igniters?
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Doug Miller wrote:

Some gas water heaters have electric controls and igniters similar to a gas furnace along with a draft inducer blower.
TDD
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The Daring Dufas wrote:

right, but a gas water heater wouldn't need a 240VAC circuit to serve it, either. So still only 2 wires plus ground.
nate
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Nate Nagel wrote:

Perhaps there is a confusion of terminology. R. Green may be somewhere other than The U.S. Them dang furners talk funny ya know. *snicker*
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wrote:

How about an electric water heater with a timer to turn it off during the day? No igniter, but it still uses both voltages.
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wrote:

power the

110VAC.
Yep, I stepped on my overflow pipe on that one. Appreciate the backup, but I should have quit with "some 240VAC gear needs 110VAC and a neutral connection." I got caught fair and square. President Bill taught me not to do what he did. I wonder what would have happened had he confessed in graphic detail instead of lying? I doubt it could have been any worse!
-- Bobby G.
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Robert Green wrote:

The cover-up gets you:
Said Bill Clinton to you Ms Lewinsky, "We don't want to leave clues like Kaczynski, Since you look such a mess, Use the hem of your dress, And wipe that stuff off your chinsky."
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wrote:

the
110VAC.
Oops. I knew there was something wrong with that sentence when I was moving from the general to the specific. How about: Cold fusion electric water heaters have igniters to start the fusion process? Or: They need an igniter to activate a Maxwell's Demon that sorts the hotter water molecules from the cooler ones? How about - I f_cked up! Yeah, that's the ticket! But you get the general gist. Some of that 240VAC gear needs 110VAC connections . . . Just NOT *electric* water heater igniters. (-:
-- Bobby G.
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[major snippage]

More likely IMHO a failure to understand that the neutral carries current. It's a Code violation, and a dangerous one, to connect the neutral of one circuit to the neutral of another circuit unless the two are part of the same multiwire circuit.
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On Nov 7, 12:53 pm, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

It's perfectly normal to see several neutrals wire nutted together in a junction box. Say a switch is going to serve 3 lights that have seperate runs to them. In that box, the neutrals from each light run would typically be tied together with the neutral coming into the box from the breaker. So, you'd have 4 white neutral wires nutted together.
That is distinctly seperate from two hots from two breakers sharing a neutral in an edison circuit.

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wrote:

It's perfectly normal to see several neutrals wire nutted together in a junction box. Say a switch is going to serve 3 lights that have seperate runs to them. In that box, the neutrals from each light run would typically be tied together with the neutral coming into the box from the breaker. So, you'd have 4 white neutral wires nutted together.
That is distinctly seperate from two hots from two breakers sharing a neutral in an edison circuit. ====================================== Good point.
And, I just checked my original fuse boxes. Of the six 3-wire bx cables coming, the 4 that I checked had both hots on the same leg! So I'm assuming all six were wired in this way. Which may explain why the lights sometimes dim precipitously. So someone didn't know about Edison circuits, eh??
So here's another Q:
Is a 3-wire bx cable leaving a panel *necessarily* an edison-type deal? Do the two hots *always* have to be connected to separate phases? I would think so, but I'm not absolutely sure. But I am going to put them on sep phases regardless.
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EA




>
> More likely IMHO a failure to understand that the neutral carries current.
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Existential Angst wrote: ...

From the cable alone, "not necessarily" -- it _could_ be a 240V w/ third conductor ground. Of course, it would still require the hots be on opposite buses or there would be no potential between them and, of course, the third conductor wouldn't be neutral but ground.
But, if'en this-here supposed cable is serving 110V circuits, then yes. (Or at least at the moment I can't think of any alternative that would be Code-compliant).
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No. It could supply an appliance that has both 240V and 120V loads. Examples include electric dryers (240V heating elements, 120V motor and controls) and electric stoves (240V heating elements, 120V controls).

Well, no, not *always* -- one of them could be connected to nothing, I suppose.
But if they're both connected, then yes, absolutely.
You can't get 240V unless they're on opposite legs of the service. And if they're on the same leg, then the current in the neutral could be as much as twice what it's rated for -- which is a potential fire hazard.
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wrote:

Examples
and
What about air conditioner igniters? (-:
-- Bobby G.
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 01:41:21 -0500, "Robert Green"

If you have gas air conditioning.
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Gary H wrote:

Theoretically possible; my grandparents had a gas refrigerator. Worked well and quiet, too.
nate
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On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 01:41:21 -0500, "Robert Green"

This air conditioner is a hybrid system that can run on either gas or electricity. Therefore, it has both an igniter and 240V service. You'd have this if you prefer gas, but that's unreliable.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

That's perfectly fine -- as long as they're all part of the same circuit. Wire-nutting together the neutrals from two different circuits is not fine.
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It's *not* OK if they're on different circuits.

Exactly.
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