solar panel

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Which, of course, is not generating electricity which is what the solar energy scam.. er... industry is being built on. Alternative energy GENERATION sources have to be in place by mandate, without regard to there actual usefulness (or heck in some cases without regard to the physics.) This is a whole different ball of wax that actually works. I use many of these at my house (I also have strategically planted trees). But these are also things that are really only gonna help at the margins.
--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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aemeijers wrote:

Agreed. But greenhouses and the like don't scale to the city level.
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wrote:

There is a big solar push in New Jersey right now. One of my inspector friends has posted pictures of a couple of big projects going on in his city, at tax payer expense. Germany is also doing a lot of this and the cost per KWH is working out to be about .55 Euro. That works out to be a .44 Euro green tax per KWH on all the energy they create this way. Imagine quadrupling your electric bill for the same usage and you get an idea of the wonders of solar power. That is more than it costs to rent, buy fuel and run a 36 KVA diesel generator next to your house.
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On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:51:55 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

So, you prefer to keep funding worldwide terrorists? My feeling is that the cost of reducing oil usage is worth pretty much whatever we pay. Wars aren't cheap, and they really aren't effective for this problem, either. Solar power, even with what it costs right now, is a very cost effective measure to help defund terrorists by needing less of their oil.
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On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 11:14:59 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@mickymall.com wrote:

That is a red herring. We import most of our oil from Canada and Mexico. Electricity doesn't really come from oil anyway. It comes from coal and natural gas, both that we have plenty of.
Even the idea that we are at war over oil is a lie too. The arabs would be very happy to swell us all the oil we want no matter what our middle east policy was.
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lets hope not.
removing saddam has increased iran becoing more powerful force in the area.
making the world less safe for everyone.
and between the wikileaks info and we can expect a civil war as soon as US troop numbers drop enough.......
bush set the stage for WW3
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

You have a couple of seemingly valid points.
I submit, however, that Iran is moving toward making Iran less safe for everyone in Iran, not the rest of the world.
If push comes to shove - say Iran blocks the Straits of Hormuz - the rest of the world will turn on them in an instant with a vengeance of immeasurable proportions. There might be a WW3, except it'll be most of the world against Iran!
The result will be quick and decisive. Iran has to import food. The country has to even import GASOLINE, for crying-out-loud. They have virtually NO stockpiles of fuel (even the Japanese had over a year's supply of oil saved up when they attacked Pearl Harbor).
The country is run by egomaniacs completely detached from reality and their general staff got its military training out of G.I. Joe comic books.
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On Sat, 23 Oct 2010 23:15:03 -0500, The Daring Dufas

Bingo, we have a winner. We attacked Iraq so Israel wouldn't have to.
If there was an Iraq/Israel war, either we would have been drawn in or Israel would have been in serious trouble. It could have easily been Israel against everyone else in the region and they can't win that war alone. You might even find a lot of Europe would side with Iraq.. They were certainly moving away from the sanctions and the UN resolutions by the late 90s.
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The real reason was to keep Winooski in, though.
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On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 20:15:57 -0500, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

Mall of America in Minnesota has no central heating plant. There is spot heating in a few areas, such as the entrance, but the main mall, located in the frozen land of Minnesota, doesn't require any help other than solar and body heat of shoppers, to maintain comfort in gigantic spaces with sky-high ceilings.
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On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:51:50 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

You also need to take into account the heat generated by all of the electrical equipment, lights etc in that mall. That will be far more than the 300 BTU per person you get from the shoppers.
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On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 12:44:13 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Yeah, that must make up for the lack of a central heating system! Obviously that's what keeps the mall at 65 degrees when the outside temps are 30 or 40 below zero.
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On Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:21:26 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

Many large commercial buildings use the lighting for heat. They don't get turned off. Also note that the heat loss of a building goes up as the ~2/3s power of the floorspace (larger building less heat per sq.ft.).
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On Oct 27, 6:49pm, " snipped-for-privacy@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

I'd be interested in seeing any hard facts about exactly how the Mall of America, in it's entirety, is heated. From what I've found from a bit of googling, as claimed, it does not have a "central heating system". I've also seen it stated that it uses solar heating, ie skylights for the "common areas". But that leaves the majority of the mall, ie ALL the store floor space, which is probably 90%+ of the project. How is that heated? Do we know that each store does not have it's own conventional heating system? And whatever is heating those stores, with wide open doors to the common area, a lot of the common area heating is obviously coming from the stores.
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Well, then there you have it. Just as I suspected. That'a a far cry from the posted claim:
"Mall of America in Minnesota has no central heating plant. There is spot heating in a few areas, such as the entrance, but the main mall, located in the frozen land of Minnesota, doesn't require any help other than solar and body heat of shoppers, to maintain comfort in gigantic spaces with sky-high ceilings. "
If Wikipedia is correct, then the overwhelming source of heat for the mall is the individual heating systems in the stores.
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On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:11:45 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

You are out of your skull. The wikipedia article doesn't say anything of the kind.
The wikipedia article is poorly written and highly inaccurate.
SOME of the stores have small auxilary heaters for spot heating of certain areas of their stores which need additional heat at times. That is a very far cry from "the overwhelming source of heat for the mall is the individual heating systems in the stores". which is simply wrong. I think it's easy to imagine that the store owners might object to paying to heat the entire mall from their little in-store heaters. Sort of like trying to heat your neighborhood by leaving the windows on your house open. Pretty expensive.
Overall, the mall has to run air conditioning, even during the winter, when the place overheats.
The mall has over 8 ACRES of skylights that use the greenhouse effect to provide most of the heat. Body heat from people is also a big contributor.
Each person gives off about as much heat as a 100 watt incandescent light bulb. A LOT of people go to that mall.
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On Oct 28, 1:46pm, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

I'll leave it for others to figure out who's out of their skull. But if the measure of that is what Wikipedia says, then I don't think Smitty or I are out of our skulls, because Wikipedia says exactly what Smitty quoted:

OK, I admit Wikipedia may not the best source. Where is your source that says the whole place, stores and all are heated by passive solar and people? The Mall of America's own website has numerous facts listed about the mall:
http://www.mallofamerica.com/about_moa_facts.aspx#/terms-and-conditions/home/terms-and-conditions 8 acres of skylights .57 miles walking distance around one level,
etc
And all they have to say about heating/cooling is this:
"70 degrees inside the mall, no matter if it is spring, summer, or fall."
Seems rather odd, if in fact it's some solar energy miracle machine.

What they object too, or concede to as conditions of leasing is irrelevant. If, in fact, the stores have their own heating systems, then they aren't heating the entire mall. They are heating their own stores and some of the heat which escapes through the typical mall open doors on stores goes into the common space. Now, I don't now the ratio, but at malls I've been to, the overwhelming space is devoted to retail floor space and the common area is a much smaller percentage. So, if some heat goes out the open doors from all the stores, it could play a significant role in heating the rest of the mall, which is the common area that has no central heating unit. To each store individually, it wouldn't be a huge economic burden to leasing.

Not at all like that. It would be more like heating the common areas of an apartment building with the heat if all tenants left their doors open.

And does the place freeze over when they leave at night? Or when they are closed for holidays? Like I said, I'd like to know more. Just provide a credible reference that supports those claims. Especially that they have to run AC in the winter. So far, what I've seen on the web seems to be very selective and doesn't even come close to giving a picture of the total situation.
Here's a reference that quotes a Mall of America spokesperson and it agrees with Wikipedia:
http://wcco.com/consumer/heating.costs.cold.2.638318.html
"In reality, we don't heat the mall," said Anna Long, a spokesperson for the Mall of America. "There's no central heating system which is incredible if you think about it."
Shoppers are heating up the mall. The body heat of 40 million visitors each year is one of three heating sources. Sunshine from the skylights, which are seven and a half acres of glass and miles of artificial lights help too.
The mall is typically 72 degrees in the winter.
"There's a lot of math that went into it," Long said. "I can't probably give you details you need on that, but I can assure you there were rooms of research went into it so this could work."
Individual stores must have their own heating systems, but during future renovations, experts may find a way to harness the extra heat produced.
So, I'd say it depends on what your definition of "heating the mall" is. To most people, to claim that you're not heating the mall would mean the whole thing, including the stores which are the majority of the square footage. To say we don't heat the common areas is apparently the truth and that's a very different and less dramatic story. To use your analogy, it would be like me claiming I don't need to heat my house, when in fact, it's the sun room that doesn't have the heating unit. One would also have to wonder how much of the miracle heat gain in the winter is then lost to increased cooling needs in the summer. Sunshine still comes in through all those 8 acres of skylights, does it not?
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On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:54:54 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Poorly worded. SOME stores have spot heating in a few areas. It is not how they are heated overall.

I guess you haven't seen the mall!

No, silly. The mall has huge amounts of thermal mass.
Let me know when the mall is ever closed.
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On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 17:35:31 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

The bottom line would actually be to compare their total energy bill to other large enclosed malls on a square foot basis.
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On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 20:33:01 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Sure! Just give me the names of 3 or 4 other malls the same size located in similar climates!
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