Solar Electric Systems, Entry-Level

*I haven't installed any solar PV systems nor do I advocate that anyone does
without carefully weighing the costs versus the gains.  I'm an electrical
contractor in NJ and have taken a few courses on these installations as part
of my continuing ed requirements.  The current driving force in NJ to
install solar is SREC's (Solar Renewable Energy Certificates)
http://www.njcleanenergy.com/renewable-energy/programs/solar-renewable-energy-certificates-srec/new-jersey-solar-renewable-energy  
Apparently you can buy and trade these certificates.  You can assign who
will benefit from them such as the installer who can apply them towards your
installation cost.  As one instructor put it "The current demand for solar
power installations in NJ has nothing to do with electricity.  It is all
about SREC's".  He is an engineer who is currently consulting on 33
commercial PV installations in NJ.

A discussion did come up in one class about qualified installers and
training.  The certificates that are issued by these schools are worth squat
in the real world.  You will probably learn a lot, but without knowledge of
electrical installations in general and the codes involved you won't have
all of the knowledge that you need to do it successfully.  There is a lot of
planning necessary and if you hope to get any rebates or tax breaks which is
the only way to make it financially viable, there will be a lot of paperwork
involved.  All of which must be done beforehand.

I know that some manufacturers require that installers receive their
training before they can do installations.  I have also heard that Costco is
now selling plug-in systems for a homeowner to install.  In my most recent
class the topic of microinverters came up which was a new one for me.
Apparently some solar panels come with their own inverters so that each
panel will now put out AC power   This makes it a little simpler instead of
having to wire both AC and DC power.

If you really want to pursue this I suggest getting a copy of the 2011
National Electrical Code and read the appropriate chapters such as Article
690 and article 250.  You should also talk with the power company if you
plan on tying into the grid to get a payback.  The power company will have
final say whether you can tie in or not (At least in NJ they do).  You
should also talk to your building department about their requirements to
pass inspection.  You will need permits to do this work and they may not
allow homeowners to do it themselves.  You may need an engineer to evaluate
how much weight your roof can tolerate. You should also be comfortable
working with live electricity.

I have heard that fireman are very concerned about solar panels in case they
have to go on a roof.  Those panels are always producing power when it is
light out and they would have to break through them to gain access to the
roof below.

You should also have a lot of life left on your roof before mounting the
panels.  Otherwise you will need to remove the panels in a few years to get
a new roof installed.

The solar panels usually have a rated life of 20 years.  After that they
must be disposed of and replaced.  From what I understand, there is
currently no process available at this time to successfully recycle solar
panels.  So they just wind up in a landfill.  So much for going green.

BTW $600.00 for a 42 hour specialized course is very cheap.  I wish my
community college had deal like that.

http://www.njcleanenergy.com/renewable-energy/programs/solar-renewable-energy-certificates-srec/new-jersey-solar-renewable-energy  

Yeah. It's a good deal if you're planning on working in the industry.
After reading your post and thinking about it, I dropped the course. I'd
probably go through with it if it wasn't a 1 hour round trip to the class.

Jim

And I say once again, harry doesn't know what he's talking about.
Mr. Grabowski's post points out some of the many issues involved.
How anyone could think that a poster who has very limited
experience with electrical work would be able to acquire the
knowledge to successfully install a solar array and tie it into
the grid is beyond ridiculous.

I'm experienced with electricity, have pulled permits to do
my own work and I would get an experienced installer
to do a solar system, including the electrical portion.   There is
definitely major value in having someone that has done
this kind of install many times, knows all the code issues,
has experience dealing with the inspections, etc.  I wouldn't
try to cut corners on a DIY on a $50K system.

Among some of the most obvious traps that have been
pointed out are meeting the requirements for the various
rebates.   To get some of those requires a very detailed
application with complete  technical details on the install,
including the contractor that installed it.  There is also
the little matter of warranties that I'd look into.  It's
typical for manufacturers of a wide variety of products
that are far simpler than this to require that they be
installed by an authorized dealer, or licensed electrician,
etc for the warranty to be valid.   DIY and you may save
some $$ and wind up with no 20 year warranty.

There are some entry level pv products that simply plug into a
convenient wall outlet.  If you want to start cheap that's probably
the way to go.  Otherwise you have economies of scale and it doesn't
make sense to have all that equipment for a few hundred watts.  There
is a "no smaller than" point below which it is not worth the effort.
As others have mentioned the return is not really there either unless
you also can get some tax credits out of it.

It isn't childs play to wire up a residential PV system.  Does a child
know the NEC?   And 99% of them are connected to and require
 the grid to work, so that's almost a given.  It's re;atively rare to
see a true off-grid system and I'll bet Jim's isn't one of them.
So much for your knowledge on the subject.

As for paperwork, that's involved without regard to whether it's
hooked up to the grid or not.  Ever here of a building permit?
That's what is required here for any PV system.  And there
damn well sure is a mountain of paperwork to get the various
rebates, tax breaks, etc that make them viable.



It's a lot more than sizing.   An example being, what kind of
conductors
are allowed on a hot roof, or underground to connect panels to the
house?  Do they have to be in conduit?  How deep do they have to be
 buried?  Think a child knows that?  Or that a guy with no electrical
experience can figure that out in an hour as you claimed?  You
really are a joke and posts like this should warn everyone that
you're a complete moron.



Once again, you;ve demonstrated that you really are the village
idiot.  Do you just enjoy making an ass out of yourself and
getting bitch slapped right and left?

<heh> I'll bet you wish you could do that over.

Who are you directing that comment towards?

I guess not.

I always think it's funny when someone calls someone a moron and uses
poor English.

Jim

I  am  English.  Anything I say is therefore English.
=====================================

I believe he was referring to Green's Law - when someone posts an insult,
they're likely to err themselves as in "Your Stupid."  I believe the line
being referred to was "Ever HERE of a building permit" when the poster
clearly meant "HEAR."

Hear, hear!

--
Bobby G.

Bingo. Funny we had to explain it to an Englishman. :-)

FWIW: I stopped calling people moron, stupid.. etc.., etc. for that
reason. When I'm pissed, spelling and grammar seem to go right out the
window.

Jim

Harry was just confused.  He's got to be old, having won WII
single-handedly, so give him a break.  (-:  It's pretty easy to get lost in
the multi-threading, especially when one of the "who struck John" questions
arise.  Reminds me of the "Are you talking to ME?" scene in "Taxi Driver."
In real life you know who said what.  On Usenet you have to count nested

sure.  And still people get it wrong all the time, myself included.  It's
why you'll never find me in a thread with >>>>>>>>> because by then it's
mostly two squirrels arguing over a peanut.


There are better reasons, like spiritual enlightenment.  I stopped because
it was too easy for a debate opponent to Google me and come up with laundry
lists of insulting things I've said.  Now I only do it occasionally.  (-:
IIRC, Harry got me to cross the line with his "Who *really* won WWII?"
challenges to world history, but since then I've come to learn almost ALL
Brits believe they won WWII single-handedly because of the enormous Brit
propaganda effort meant to shore up national will during the war.


You aren't the only one.  I find I leave the "r"'s off of "your" and make
other glitches that spell checkers and even light proofreading won't catch.

Here hear,
their there,
threw, through
two, to, too

Who MADE up this crazy language anyway?

--
Bobby G.

Andy adds:

 I also am a retired electronics engineer and have messed with solar
energy, as part of a hobby, on my house and barn for almost 20 years.
I was able to design and fabricate most of the components myself, so
I
could do it on the cheap.  Most people can't....

I agree with everything Harry (above) says.....

Hooking the pieces together is no more complicated than following
directions.... much like plugging accessories into your computer....

However, unless your circumstances are very special, it isn't a
sound financial decision here in the US......

If you take the money you will spend and put it in the bank, just
the interest on that money will pay the electric bill for all the
energy the panels will generate.  And you still have your stash
in the bank...

Before going "off the grid", determine how much electricity your
solar setup will generate, and reduce your "on the grid" consumption
to that level for six months. Don't cheat.  If at the end of six
months
you are happy with that lifestyle, you might end up being happy with
it..... I've never known anyone who has done this, and never cheated,
and still decided to go "off the grid", tho....  ... And then there's
the cost of
the divorce lawyer to consider...   :>))))

                    Andy in Eureka, Texas

I think it's viable here (Austin) if you take advantage of the $2.50/kw
rebate but you have to use one of the city approved installers. A PV
certificate isn't going to do much good in that case so that's why I
dropped the course. My wife is calling me a college drop-out.

I'm looking into one of the "plug-in" systems but it seems like they are
still in the development stage.

Jim

Andy comments:
  I guessing that the requirement for a "licensed installer" is more
for
the safety angle of the panels blowing off your roof and damaging
property or persons than whether a "proper" electrical installation
is
involved.  The city of Austin probably doesn't care whether it works
or
not, just whether it is safe ---- as most building codes are designed
to do...

   One further safety issue is whether the installation will feed
electricity
back into the power line.  If a lineman has to "disconnect" power to
do
repairs a couple streets over, and PV installations are keeping the
power line energized and he doesn't know about it, it will be a safety
hazard....

   But, mostly, I think it is all the wind,hurricanes, and tornadoes
making loose
shingles, tiles, signs, panels fly about decapitating people..... and
ruining their flower beds.

                        Andy in Eureka, Texas (south of Dallas)

Andy writes:
  No, I didn't construct the panels myself. I used 22 watt panels of
amorphous silicon that sold for about $125 USD each.  In Dallas
there is about 5.5 hours of "full sun" per day, which means that
each panel could produce 5.5 x 22 121 watt-hours per day, on the
average.  That,per panel,  is about one cents worth of electricity, if
taken from
the grid.... Hence, it would take 12500 days, (34 years), to recover
just the cost of the panels... and that doesn't include shipping,
batteries, inverter, wiring, maintenance... etc.....  AND that assumes
the array is "tracked" instead of in a fixed position......

   And 125 UDS in the bank at 5% generates $6.25 USD in yearly
interest,
or about 2 cents a day, which would buy TWICE the electricity
from the grid that the panel would generate.... There are no economies
of scale in this, either....

    Yet, it was fun to mess with...   If I were on a sailboat, or in
a
remote cabin, it would be reasonable to use this to power a small
radio and a light so I could stay up past sundown... But that isn't
a lifestyle that appeals to me.....

    Forget about refrigeration, heat, or air conditioning......or
cooking.....

   I guess on a hike thru the wilderness, a small panel could be used
to recharge a cell phone so one could call for help after being
attacked
by a bear.... or an irate wife.....  :>)))

                    Andy in Eureka, Texas

Last time I checked, plugging an accessory into a computer did
not typically require an electrical permit.    Nor does
it require that the person doing the work do it in accordance with
the NEC and that it pass inspection after the local electrical
inspector looks at it.   Nor does the computer situation involve
working with lethal voltages, which, if not done correctly, could
kill either the person doing the work or others.

See the difference?



Which is also wrong.   There are lots of incentives and they vary
from state to state.  In places like NJ and CA, with all the
incentives
from federal, state and local, PV can be a sound financial decision
for a homeowner in under 10 years.







Almost all of the solar installs in the US are not "off grid".  In
fact,
they only work in conjunction with the grid.  So, no need for
the experiment and only a loon that currently has grid power
available would dut there ties to the grid.

Which leads me to wonder how much you really know about
solar at all.




 I've never known anyone who has done this, and never cheated,

**** Last time I checked, anyone could hook a solar panel to
a battery and an inverter..... most without reading the directions.
Usually the voltages are the same as in a computer --- 120 AC
is typically the highest.... What sort of ultra-high voltage PV
array are you talking about..??

***** Nope... And, if you do, you are looking in the wrong direction.
RE: Financial advisability

**** So, if you like it, you should do it.....  Someone who only looks
at the "financial incentives" and doesn't understand the issue enough
to do the electrical evaluation and tradeoffs themselves will
probably end up going back to the grid...... But, I'm not going
to change my lifestyle, which is quite comfortable, for a few
dollars of "tax savings" ......  Good luck to those who do.

***  Ok.    Since I pay about 10 cents per kwh for "on the grid"
I hope those people who are trying to get rich by selling sunlight
to the power companies have luck with their investment, which
typically runs many tens of thousands of dollars.  My electricity
useage for the rest of my life won't cost as much as most
PV installations.... Perhaps I am in the minority. Presently, for
the last 10 years (which I keep records of) I use about $1700 worth
of electricity a year, for a 3000 sq ft (approx) house with an
irrigation pump to pump lake water to my garden..... That's the
TOTAL for about 100 miles south of Dallas , Texas ... Statistically,
I'll live another 15 years...... You do the math.




**** I know enough to know that it doesn't make sense for me to
convert to it, even if I design and build my own system, which I
am fully qualified to do......Actually, I have done it, but only on a
small
scale to see the feasibility ....  It was fun...

I suggest that you have read a bunch of magazine articles put out
by people who sell and/or install PV stuff, and you feel that you are
somehow expert in the field.....   Good luck with that...
Tell us about your own personal experience with designing , building,
and installing PV systems and we'll compare notes......And by
designing, I'm talking about the component level... not plugging
cards into connectors.....  Been there, done that, got a bunch of
patents on it.....

         Andy in Eureka,  licensed PE, GMDSS, GROL ,BS, MS, etc....

Who said anything about an array being ultra-high voltage?
We were discussing the feasibility of a person who stated
he has very little experience working with electricty installing
his own residential PV system. I said it has voltages that
 are potentially lethal to either the installer or others if not
 done correctly.

So then you make the asinine statement that installing
a residential PV array is similar to plugging an
accessory into a computer.   Now maybe where you
come from, that means playing with a 2 watt array and
a 9v battery.   But the systems that are being deployed in
the rest of the country typically are not in that category.
And I don't believe that is what Jim was talking about
either.

One of the first replies was from John Grabowski,
a real licensed electrician, who pointed out some of
the many issues that apparently you and the idiot
harry can't grasp.  The PV system has to be installed
to conform with the NEC.  It needs a permit.  It needs
 to be  inspected.  And it deals with 240V which, unlike
adding a USB peripheral to a PC, can kill you.  I can
legally go over to my neighbors house and install
a wireless network for his PC.   I cannot do that
with a PV array unless I'm a licensed electrician.
And if I do PC work, the warranty on the $50 router
is still valid.  If I install a PV system as a DIY, I'll
bet there's a good chance the warranty is kaput.

See the differences now?





Sigh.  You really don't get it at all do you?  Of all the systems I've
seen installed around here, NONE are off the grid.  Nor was there
anything in Jim's post suggesting he was going off grid.  These
PV systems work in conjunction with the grid.  Capiche?

As far as someone needing to be capable of doing the electrical
evaluation and tradeoffs in order to understand the economics,
that's just more nonsense.




And yet more nonsense.  Who said anything about anyone
changing their lifestyle for a few dollars of tax savings?
You really don't know the first thing about PV at all.  I
know several people here who have the typical 6KW
size systems installed and none have changed their
lifestyle one bit.  Nor did they need to understand
the technical details of electricity to calculate and
evaluate the payback.





You make the mistake of assuming what you happen to encounter
in your own little world is entirely consistent with the rest of the
world.   In NJ, as in many other parts of the country with large
polulations, the cost of electricity is signifcantly higher.  It's
around 18c kwh here.  So that $1700 bill would be $3000 here.
The cost of a residential PV array to support that bill would
be about $50K here.  There is a 30% federal tax credit, meaning
you get $15K cut off your tax bill.   NJ also has state incentives
that can provide about another $10K rebate.  That brings
the system down to $25K.

Perhaps you've heard of this little issue with greenhouse gases?
To reduce CO2 emissions the feds and various states have
instituted measures to encourage utilities to use power from
green sources.   In NJ, the utilities are required to buy an
increasing shard of their power from green sources and
residential PV arrays meet that goal.  For every 1000KWh
of power your PV array produces, you get a certificate that
the electric companies will then buy from you to meet
that goal.   That's right.  Even though you may use all
the power from the PV array over a year for your own
usage, you still get the certificates, because it's reducing
greenhouse gas emissions.

Those certificates from the 6KW PV system are
currently being bought by the electic companies here
for several thousand dollars a year.   So, you have
a system that costs a net $25K, your $2000 electric bill
is reduced to near zero, and you get $3000 in
cash each year.

That's the math.

Oh, and you don't have to change your lifestyle one bit either.


You may be licensed, but I wouldn't let you anywhere near my house.
You think you know a lot, but clearly don't

The inverter can sense grid failure and will shut down or disconnect.
The bad thing is that power companies for the most part buy back
electricity at the wholesale rate which is about 1/3 or 1/4  of what
we buy it from them.

Jimmie