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On Mar 3, 11:38 am, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Have a problem with pointing out the truth. The FACT is that the lexus can be shifted to neutrral under runaway conditions. It has been proven TWICE and both were cited in this thread.
To explain it in simple terms for simple people:
The cause of the runaway was Toyota's fault. The deaths were due to driver error.
Harry K
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Show us where what you claim above has been proven. I've seen people saying that a NORMAL functioning Lexus can be shifted into neutral. I've seen people report that Toyota has said that the shift linkage is only mechanical and it can be shifted into neutral while being driven. Neither of those proves that it's true under runaway conditions. As I've said before, unless you know the design of the car and what is linked to what, you are making assumptions unsupported by the facts.
If you have a link supporting that Toyota has tested shifting a Lexus into neutral on a track going at topspeed with full throttle, I'd be very happy to see it.
That would be a start. But then the other component would be that you would also have to know by design that nothing in the tranny could prevent it from being shifted, even if not designed to do so intentionally. I'd want to see exactly what prevents the shift lever from moving into ANY position under any circumstances. For example, is there a lock that keeps it from moving into park when the car is moving? And what determines that, how the mechanism works, etc. You would need to take apart the trannys from the wrecked cars and do a complete forensic investigation of the components.
I'm not saying it's likely all the cars could not be shifted, just that if we jumped to conclusions without ALL the facts, a lot more people would be dead today. Why do you think it takes so long for the NTSB to carefully analyze plane crashes instead of saying the pilot was stupid, he should have been able to land the plane?
Also note that I'm not saying how the cars are or are not designed or what caused anything. All I'm saying is that until more investigations are done and more facts are established, it's premature to be calling a dead CHP officer, among others, stupid for not being able to shift the car.

Actually, your whole approach to the problem is remarkably similar to Toyota's. For years they dismissed reports of both runaway acceleration and wrecks as driver stupidity instead of doing a complete investigation before jumping to conclusions.
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On Mar 4, 4:58 am, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Take it from the top again and making it simple for you.
Thne cause of the cop/family death:
Runaway - Toyota Deaths - incompetent driver.
Proof of shifting under runaway: You must never watch the news or read this thread very carefully.
1. Guy gets runaway, does the correct thing (short of shutting it off) - repeatedly goes from drive to neutral and back, pulls into dealers lot with it still happening. All over the news and cited in this thread.
2. Guy shows how he can induce runaway. Aslo shifts to neutral prior to making a stop. Aslo all over the news and cited in this thread.
Feel free to continue distorting what I have said.

Never claimed that I did but nice try.

Now you are just being totally unreasonable. How about proposing somehow picking up a rock that blocks the shifter.

Really stretching there now.

I repeat. Since it has been proven it can be shifted and noone has come up with even one example of a car that cannot be shifted...'

Sorry if me pointing out reality to you doesn't suit you.
Harry K
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It's not up to me to watch the news to prove your claims. You claimed specifically that a Lexus had been brought to a stop by shifting into neutral during runaway conditions. First, on the face of it, this is actually impossible to do, because no one has been able to duplicate the "runaway" condition. So, the best you could be referring to was that it's been proven that a Lexus identical to the one driven by the CA highway patrol officer can be shifted into neutral when traveling 120mph under full throttle. That would be a good start. Link please.

Please point me to where this is in this long thread. I've seen where someone posted about an electronics guy causing full throttle by fooling with some wires and that it did not set any fault code in the computer. I have not seen where he did that while driving and shifted to neutral while going 120mph at full throttle. Maybe I missed something and you can show me where this was stated.

I never claimed that you had said so. But YOU keep insisting that there is loads of evidence that a Lexus can be shifted into neutral under runaway conditions. All I'm asking for is a link to Toyota or anyone else that has done a test that your believe at least closely duplicates the runaway conditions.
Note: That isn't an anecdotal report here that someone shifted their car into neutral going at 50mph, etc.

Why is it unreasonable to expect a forensic investigation of the key components from key cars, like the CA highway patrol officers Lexus? Just because you want to jump to conclusions, everyone else should join you? Is that what the NTSB does with a plane crash?

How would you suggest to get to the bottom of it? Just rely on your speculation as opposed to scientific investigation?

Just point us to a link where it has been proven that you can shift that Lexus into neutral under runaway conditions, as you claim. Of course you can't because no one can duplicate the runaway conditions exactly. But I'll settle for a link to a test going at 100-120mph under full throttle conditions.
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On Mar 4, 1:59 pm, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Keep trying and digging yourself deeper. Anyone who claims that they did _not_ see those news reports OR the cites to them in this thread has no credibilityi.
Harry K
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net writes:
| It's not up to me to watch the news to prove your claims. You | claimed specifically that a Lexus had been brought to a stop by | shifting into neutral during runaway conditions. First, on the face | of it, this is actually impossible to do, because no one has been able | to duplicate the "runaway" condition. So, the best you could be | referring to was that it's been proven that a Lexus identical to the | one driven by the CA highway patrol officer can be shifted into | neutral when traveling 120mph under full throttle.
I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but I really don't know: typically, does shifting an automatic transmission into neutral actually disengage a gear or does it merely cause the torque converter to stop transferring torque?
Let me explain why I ask. I have a 1997 Toyota Landcruiser with automatic transmission. It also has a (totally mechanical) shift on the transfer case to select low or (normal) high speed. The manual says to put the automatic transmission in neutral when you want to change the transfer ratio. If I follow those instructions I hear/feel a nasty gear grinding when I try to shift the transfer case, suggesting that somehow the output of the transmission is still rotating with at least some force. If I put the automatic transmission in park then transfer case shifting is smooth and quiet, though as I pass through the neutral position of the transfer case I get a warning light that the A/T parking break is no longer effective. The manual says not to do this, but I'm not sure why.
Incidentally, there are two solenoid interlocks that can prevent certain shifts of the automatic transmission but nothing (well, at least nothing electric) that can stop me from putting the transfer case in neutral so I figure I'm safe no matter what any computer may decide to do. :)
                Dan Lanciani                 ddl@danlan.*com
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Neither, actually. It disengages a clutch inside the transmission.
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Miller) writes:
| | | >I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but I really don't know: | >typically, does shifting an automatic transmission into neutral | >actually disengage a gear or does it merely cause the torque | >converter to stop transferring torque? | | Neither, actually. It disengages a clutch inside the transmission.
Interesting. Is disengaging that clutch used for anything else (except perhaps park)? If that clutch on my vehicle were not fully disengaging would I likely observe any other symptoms or would the torque converter absorb the rotation in park and at idle in neutral with the transmission loaded (i.e., with the transfer case not in neutral)?
                Dan Lanciani                 ddl@danlan.*com
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A typical automatic transmission has several internal clutches that are engaged, or disengaged, by hydraulic pressure. The gearing in an AT consists of multiple sets of planetary gears, and the clutches lock or release various parts of the various gearsets to control the gear ratios. The clutches are disengaged in both neutral and park. In park, additionally, the transmission output shaft is mechanically locked by a pin or bar which prevents it from turning.

I would expect harsh shifts and unpleasant noises.

Given that the torque converter can absorb the engine's rotation with the transmission in gear and the vehicle stopped with the brakes applied... I'd have to say yes. :-)
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Miller) writes:
(Doug | > Miller) writes:
| > wrote: | >| | >| | >| >I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but I really don't know: | >| >typically, does shifting an automatic transmission into neutral | >| >actually disengage a gear or does it merely cause the torque | >| >converter to stop transferring torque? | >| | >| Neither, actually. It disengages a clutch inside the transmission. | > | >Interesting. Is disengaging that clutch used for anything else (except | >perhaps park)? | | A typical automatic transmission has several internal clutches that are | engaged, or disengaged, by hydraulic pressure. The gearing in an AT consists | of multiple sets of planetary gears, and the clutches lock or release various | parts of the various gearsets to control the gear ratios. The clutches are | disengaged in both neutral and park. In park, additionally, the transmission | output shaft is mechanically locked by a pin or bar which prevents it from | turning. | | > If that clutch on my vehicle were not fully disengaging | >would I likely observe any other symptoms | | I would expect harsh shifts and unpleasant noises.
There's nothing obvious like that. Of course, with the transfer case I have my hand on the shift to feel the grinding. I did ask the dealer service guy about this but he just stared at me blankly. I had them change the transfer case fluid to see if I was causing any major damage (either by following or by not following the directions) and there wasn't any metal. I should note that for years I happily shifted the transfer ratio while in park. It was only when I noticed a blurb in the manual that I tried neutral. (The manual said not to shift in park because "the transmission will damage." I'm not sure if they meant "will be damaged" or will damage something.)
| >or would the torque converter | >absorb the rotation in park and at idle in neutral with the transmission | >loaded (i.e., with the transfer case not in neutral)? | | Given that the torque converter can absorb the engine's rotation with the | transmission in gear and the vehicle stopped with the brakes applied... I'd | have to say yes. :-)
Yeah, that was my thought as well. The system is too fault tolerant. :) I think the vehicle is too old to have enough sensors for the computer(s) to realize that the torque converter is absorbing rotation when it really should not be. And for all I know maybe it is normal for it to absorb a little in this case...
                Dan Lanciani                 ddl@danlan.*com
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On 5 Mar 2010 22:22:59 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:

There is more than one "clutch" involved - and in most transmisions also at leat one "band" or "brake". They are applied in different combinations for different gears. Your tranny uses planetary gear sets, and by holding different elements of the set, different ratios are produced. Locking the input to the output with a clutch gives direct drive.
If any of the clutches do not release fully the fluid will quickly overheat and stink. Even fully released, with no load on the output shaft it will turn when the engine is running in neutral because of viscous friction (oil between the plates of the clutches etc)
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On Fri, 05 Mar 2010 11:50:20 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Which disengages the gears. Even in most manual transmissions today the gears (except for reverse) are in constant mesh.
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wrote:

No, it doesn't. The teeth of the gears are still in mesh.

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On 5 Mar 2010 07:20:52 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:

It disengages the drive clutches of the planetary gear sets - effectively disconnecting the gears.

The planetarys are still spinning, with some friction dragging the output around. Much better to shift in park - or come to a full stop, THEN shift into neutral and shift the transfer case quickly

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writes: | On 5 Mar 2010 07:20:52 GMT, ddl@danlan.*com (Dan Lanciani) wrote:
| >Let me explain why I ask. I have a 1997 Toyota Landcruiser with | >automatic transmission. It also has a (totally mechanical) shift | >on the transfer case to select low or (normal) high speed. The | >manual says to put the automatic transmission in neutral when you | >want to change the transfer ratio. If I follow those instructions | >I hear/feel a nasty gear grinding when I try to shift the transfer | >case, suggesting that somehow the output of the transmission is | >still rotating with at least some force. | | The planetarys are still spinning, with some friction dragging the | output around. Much better to shift in park - or come to a full stop, | THEN shift into neutral and shift the transfer case quickly
Shifting in park works fine, but I'm not sure why they claim it will cause the "transmission to damage." But being at a full stop doesn't help. The specific sequence:
Vehicle parked in garage. Start vehicle in park. Shift to neutral. Shift transfer case from high to neutral; feel moderate resistance and tolerable levels of grinding. Attempt to shift transfer case from neutral to low; feel strong resistance and enough grinding to abandon attempt.
I've never tried to shift the transfer case with the vehicle in motion.
                Dan Lanciani                 ddl@danlan.*com
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On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 04:58:58 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

The FACT is the law requires there be a mechanical way to put a cat out of gear, and ALL cars with automatic transmissions, to this day, have a "manual valve" controled by a linkage to do this. The only automatic car in history that I cannot say for 100% positive had this feature was the electric shifted Edsel with the buttons in the steering wheel (made for only 2 years) and the Packard Ultramatic, which is the only car in history that could NOT be shifted into neutral at speed.
Both of these had come and gone before automotive safety legislation caught up with them.

Don't need a test if you understand how the car is built. There is NO LOCKOUT that can prevent the shifter fom moving to neutral at speed and yet allow the car to be put in neutral at a stop.
Any mechanical FAILURE that would prevent shifting to neutral at speed would also prevent going to neutral at a stop. The brake/shifter interlock only prevents shifting OUT OF PARK without the brake pedal depressed - and even IF it could control the movement into neutral fron either drive or reverse (the only options) stepping on the brake would allow the shifter to be moved.

Having had many transmissions apart, including electrically shifted, electronic controlled units, the only electical or electronic controls in today's automatics are electrically operated solenoid valves that control the flow of hydraulic fluid under pressure to the various clutches and brakes that control the shifting of the planetary gear sets. There are no electromechanical devices that interface with the manual valve control which has ULTIMATE CONTROL of the transmission. NO combination of sticky, faulty, or missapplied solenoids could cause the transmission to transmit driving force to the wheels with the manual valve in the neutral position.

That, when it exists, is in the shifter assembly itself - not the tranny, and is called a brake/shifter interlock. Requires the brake to be depressed to put the vehicle into or out of PARK ONLY.

Because there is a LOT more affecting an airplane's flight than there is affecting the operation of a motor vehicle. Aerodynamics are CRITICAL, as is structural strength and loading - which can be affected by so MANY different parameters. A little bit of ice can totally destroy the lifting capability of an airfoil (particularly the now-common "laminar" airfoils) - and by the time investigators get there, the ice is long gone.
By the way - I am also building an airplane.

I'd tell him to his face if he were still alive - even if he was "carrying" There is NO EXCUSE for the death of the Chippy and his family other than gross stupidity in the face of adversity.

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On Mar 4, 6:27 pm, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Now you did it. He will want a cite to each and every statement.
Harry K
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On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 20:43:07 -0800 (PST), Harry K

Like my auto mechanics licence number, my Diploma number and school, and the registration number for the plane under construction????? Fat chance!!!
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Probability of blowing the engine is much less than 2% - the compiuter shuts off fuel at about 4500 RPM in neutral.
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On Mon, 01 Mar 2010 16:37:24 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Unless of course the runaway condition is being caused by a fault in the computer!
Maybe it will shut off the fuel, and maybe it won't. Toyota insisted that the computer would have thrown up an error code after an alleged runaway incident. It has been proven conclusively that that is not correct. An engineer has demonstrated live on TV that he can cause the computer to go into runaway acceleration, and it does not throw up any trouble codes as a result.
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