Shoplifter of the Week: Copper edition

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They do that at the Menards here but only if you drive back into the bulk storage area and load you vehicle. Then your vehicle has to be inspected before leaving the yard. I only did that once and when I need stuff that would require me to go into that area of Menards I now go to Lowes or HD.
A couple of years ago, I bought some small item at Best Buy and the guard at the door saw me check out only 10 feet away and he still stopped me and looked at my receipt and in my bag. As I left, I said "Thanks for treating me like a thief." That was the last time they ever checked my bag when leaving that store.
-C-
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Country wrote:

You are under no legal obligation to provide any merchant with proof of purchase once you have paid for your merchandise (at that moment, both the items, and the proof (receipt) are your property). The only way they are able to get away with this is that the overwhelming majority of people do not know their rights under the law, and are willing to submit to anyone with a shiny piece of metal on his or her uniform.
Jon
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That may or may not be true for general merchants.. The membership places like Sams and Cosco can do it. Don't show and they can cancel your membership.
I don't consider it any big deal. Loss prevention helps keep the prices low. Not nearly the same as getting groped in order to fly.
Colbyt
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Sorry, but I don't want to do business with anybody who doesn't trust me to get from the cash registers to the door w/o stealing from them.
--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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On 11/28/2010 6:09 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

It ain't YOU they are worried about, it is the clerk at the register. Having a pal come through your aisle, and pretending to ring up an item but putting it in the bag anyway, is a time-honored way of ripping off stores. They don't really compare the sales slip to the items, they just want to see if the count is the same. They also put that highlighter stripe on there so you can't come back through in an hour carrying the same item out again. That silver ceiling tile or silver ball above each register is so they can watch what keys are pushed, and what is dropped into the till.
--
aem sends...

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So, I get inconvenienced and hassled because they have security problems? Seems like yet another reason to not patronize them.

Which should alleviate the need to hassle and harass most of the clients.
--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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So just how _do_ you expect them to keep the amount of thievery down to a reasonable level?
I suspect you have never tried to run a retail business
Harry K
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On 11/28/2010 1:41 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:

Exception, of course for club stores, where you agreed to abide by their security policies as part of the membership agreement. Refuse to stop, and they won't make you, but they will revoke your membership. And while you are correct for other types of stores, law on the books and law on the ground are two different things. Refuse to stop sometime, and if you are in a 'bad' part of town, store security will hold you and call the cops. And cops may charge you with disorderly conduct. You likely WILL be banned from the store, which means they can have you arrested for trespass if you ever return. Sure, you can sue after the fact, and probably win, but you'll spend more on lawyers than you will get.
He who has the gold makes the rules, etc.
IMHO, gotta learn to pick your battles. Few stores around here (other than Sams, or BestBuy during holiday season) have the checkers. Never seen one at the local Menard's. Mostly frail white-haired folk doing the checking, and I can't bring myself to holler at them. Not may jobs available at that age.
As to the around-back part- that is how a REAL lumberyard does it, just not at the gate when you drive out. THEY load the truck (or at least help you load it), and tick off the items on the invoice as they are loaded. I made lotsa supply yard runs as a kid, being low guy on the pole and the boss's kid. Thought nothing of picking 10k in material with just my signature. Hell of a rude shock when I had to start paying actual cash money for supplies, once I was living out on my own. (an 8' 2x10 costs HOW much?!?!)
-- aem sends...
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aemeijers wrote:

Which brings up a couple of questions: 1) How do they know - with certainity - who you are if you don't show them the receipt? I guess they could review the security tapes to discover where and when you checked out, then get your identification from the register tapes. Is that how you think they would do it?
2) As for "holding you" against your will until the cops arrive, that will work (assuming they have enough goons to throw you to the ground) until the person being held turns out to be the most upright, righteous citizen in the community. Or even, on the other end of the scale, an elected official (say the deputy mayor). Then the store employees get charged criminally with false arrest or false imprisonment plus the store and everybody they ever knew gets sued.
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You can only be charged with false arrest if the "citizen's arrest" was baseless, i.e., no real reason for stopping them in the first place. As long as security can explain a reasonable reason for it, it not false arrest. No more so than someone being arrested for a crime with probably cause and later found to be not assiciated can sue for false arrest...well they can try but will lose as long as the jury agrees the PC was reasonable.
Harry K
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Harry K wrote:

You make a good point. The legality hinges on whether leaving the store without showing a receipt is a "reasonable grounds of suspicion, coupled with facts sufficiently strong standing alone, to compel a rational person of the probability that a crime has been committed."
As the situation moves forward, the store - or the state - must prove you stole something. It is not up to you to prove you didn't by showing a receipt.
As for "citizen's arrest," my state, and I'm sure others, provides "a citizen may arrest without warrant for offenses committed in his presence if the offense is a felony, a breach of the peace, or to prevent the consequences of theft."
The courts have held that the theft must have been completed before the latter condition latches. If someone is seen to have secreted merchandise in his pocket, he cannot be "arrested" while still in the store. He must actually LEAVE the store for a "theft" to have taken place.
Still, your evaluation is often correct. There's the cop adage: "You might beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride."
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Thanks for that reminder. I had forgotten about that little glitch :).

And unfortunately, that "ride" can get awfully expensive and rarely can one recover it.
Harry K
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On 11/29/2010 7:54 AM, HeyBub wrote:

My roommate kept setting of anti-theft alarms whenever he entered a store. When we were on a service call for a clothing store one day were he'd been setting off the alarm every time he went to the van for tools or parts, I finally got him to take his new sneakers off and run them over the store's demagnetizer, it beeped on one shoe. Problem solves, he had bought the shoes at Kmart and they hadn't killed the magnetic tag.
TDD
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<stuff snipped>

One of my life's guiding principles is that if you have to sue someone to get something you legally deserved in the first place, then you've lost. The only people who really "make out" in lawsuits are the lawyers.
The goal in life is to avoid being sued. It's not always possible, but people can do a lot to avoid it. In the hypothetical you describe, the worst case scenario (and it's more common that anyone would ever believe) is that the rent-a-cop that stops you has an illegal gun and injures or kills you.
There have been a number of such cases in this area I recall. A teenager shot in the back riding away on bike and a presumed (but really not) shoplifter shot by Monkey Wards security. These incidents happened a long time ago - over twenty years, but really changed the way guards were hired and trained. Some of the low wage, low IQ guys that some (but not all) outfits still hire think they are supercops and shoplifters are supercriminals and behave like they've just cornered John Dillinger when they see someone trying to steal something.
Mark Chapman, the guy that shot John Lennon, was a former security guard:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11337077
That information alone makes me avoid needless confrontation with any kind of guard, even the door guards. Who knows if today's the day his latent schizophrenia "blossoms?" Sometimes it's hard when they're being pricks but thievery is so bad here that HD hires off-duty, in-uniform, fully armed county police officers as their door security and I *definitely* defer to them. There's great wisdom in that the county's spent a lot of money training them and they usually have some decent OTJ experience.
We have several ongoing Fed judicial monitoring agreements in place for our relentless police brutality "problem" which isn't much of a problem for me but sure was for the guy they caught trying to break into my neighbor's house at night while they were home asleep with their kids. Couldn't beat that dude enough for my taste. It was his fault, though: he wouldn't place his hands behind his back and got "slippery." I didn't think you could nightstick the "slippery" out of someone so fast. True masters of the baton.
Only rarely do they screw up and shoot or maim "good people" like a nearby town mayor's two dogs, but those were drug cops, not beat cops. Big difference. I figure they face death with every car they pull over, so they've earned a little deference from me. Kids certainly don't treat cops as respectfully today the way they did when I was a kid.
-- Bobby G.
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And they are probably better shots, having to qualify and all. (The upside is they are less likely to use them unless absolutely needed).
--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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On 11/28/2010 1:41 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:

All they need to do is hang a little sign saying:
"We reserve the right to inspect all packages" If that sign is there you give up most any rights you had and agree to play by their rules.
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On Nov 28, 10:41am, "Jon Danniken"

Care to quote some of the law that says that? Sounds like BS to me.
Harry K
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Harry K wrote:

You mean that any Tom ,Dick or Harry can walk up to you and demand the right to inspect your luggage? In my country even the police need proper reason and cannot search indiscriminatingly.
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wrote:

What a wild leap of logic. Think much before you post? The subject is searching a store bag that leaving a store.
Harry K
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Harry K wrote:

Absent a posted store policy to the contrary, you are never obligated to prove your innocence (by showing a receipt). See the 4th and 5th Amendments.
Of course the Constitution is not binding on a retail store...
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