Replacing a light fixture Saturday and received a shock with the switch turned off. After taking down the old fixture I had two white wires (twisted together) and one black. Brushed the bare white pair and got a shock (may have been touching the ground at the time but i'm not sure). How is this possible? The wiring in the house is original (cira 1984) except for a few fixture replacements.
Never trust someone else's wiring. In the last week we have had at least one person try and tell us it makes no difference how you wire a light (hot vs. neutral) because the light will work either way. It's done.
I will add that switching the switch off and hoping the line is dead at the controlled lighting fixture is very dangerous even if no Buba did the wiring. The power may come into the fixture box and then out to the switch so there is always a live feed to the fixture box.
I remember one time I was working on an overhead fixture and while pulling it down I was showered with sparks. I had turned on the light and then removed the fuse (this was a long time ago) checking that the light was out before starting on the job. As it turns out, the bulb burned out when I was removing what I thought was the correct fuse.
Be save, assume every wire is hot.
Glad you survived.
with the switch
white wires (twisted
got a shock (may
sure). How is this
except for a few
Sounds like either the hot/neutral are reversed, or the neutral is switched instead of the hot, or ... the other possibilities are too hard to describe in words. First, NEVER ass-u-me a ckt is dead because the switch is off: Power has to get TO the switch somehow, and that might be via the light fixture. Also, ALWAYS pull the fuse or breaker before you touch ANY wiring. Then, BEFORE you touch any wires, PROVE that they are dead before THEY prove you are dead! The best way is to test the wires with a cheap tester from RS or someplace like that. Between each wire and every wire and any metal, there should NOT be voltage present. If you've got a line tester, it's better. A meter, with its attendant high impedance front end, will often indicate "phantom" voltages where there are none. KN OW the difference, and how to tell, if you're not sure. THEN, when you're sure the wires are dead, touch them to each otehr and to any metal they reach, to see if they spark. NOW it MIGHT be safe to work on the wires.
You have done a very foolish thing that could h ave killed you had the current taken a route that went thru your heart.
120Vac kills very quikly; takes less than a second for it to throw the heart into spasms.From now on, please consider getting a knowledgeable person in to handle such jobs. Or, LEARN the ropes!
Pop
Next time, kill the circuit by turning the breaker off or pulling the fuse.
The neutral wire _carries_current_ if any load is in use on the circuit. It may be helpful to consider an analogy with plumbing: the black wire is the supply (pressure) line, and the white wire is the drain. If you take the trap out of the sink, and somebody turns on the faucet, you're going to get wet even though you never opened up the pressure line.
Electricity will ground through *all* paths available to it. This includes through your body, if you happen to be touching a _neutral_ wire at the same time you are grounded (even imperfectly grounded), because you have formed a parallel circuit with two paths. Certainly there will be more current flowing through the low-resistance path provided by the copper neutral wires than through the relatively high-resistance path provided by your body, but you can still get enough to kill.
*Never* work on energized circuits.You could not get a shock off a white wire unless something was wrong.
The somethings could include using the white as a black without identifying it properly, putting the switch on the neutral side of the circuit instead of on the hot side, and a broken neutral connection.
Do not think you are safe because the wiring is 20 years old and nothing has happened yet. I just went over the wiring on my 40 year old cottage and found 4 problems (either wiring too small, or breakers too big) that could easily have burnt the place down. It was just good luck that it hadn't. My
20 year old house had an improper multiwire circuit that could have been fatal also.
This is definitely *not* true. (Unless, in your category of "something wrong" you include working on energized circuits.)
Yes, and it can also include working on an energized circuit. If someone turns on a _different_ light fixture on the same circuit, there _will_ be current in the neutral wire.
A properly connected white wire is always connected to ground. Since ground conducts many times better than you do, the amount of current you can get off a white is too trivial to matter.
If that is not true, give me an example.
"Doug Miller"
Wow - so many posts and only 1 correct response.
- Nate
Your assumption that the amount of current flowing through your body "is too trivial to matter" is incorrect. It takes only a *tiny* amount of current, at
120V and 60Hz AC, to kill, if the ground path crosses the heart. Currents of as little as 50 to 100 mA _can_be_fatal_. Why do you suppose that GFCIs trip at 20mA?
Well, Nate, I don't think that the majority of the other posts were so much incorrect as they were incomplete. It's certainly true that many improper wiring methods (e.g. switching the neutral instead of the hot) could cause the neutral to be live.
The only incorrect posts I saw were the ones that falsely claimed that the neutral in a _properly_ wired circuit _cannot_ be dangerous.
If he took the wirenut off the white (how else do you connect up a fixture) and they open up only one of them is "white" now, the rest just turned black!
Are you really this stupid, or are you just being argumentitive for the sake of it? If you contact a white and a black, the average current will be about 60ma. Yes, 100ma can be fatal, but only if you have a prolonged contact. Anyhow, if you contact a properly wired white, your current will not be more than a few ma, even if you are well grounded. For example, the millions of electric dryers out there where the chassis is attached to the neutral; mine carries 7A, yet I can't get a shock off it even if my hands are wet. Can't come up with a counter-example? Of course not, there isn't one.
Trouble reading? He said he got the shock off them when they were twisted together.
Try this Toller-
Get into a ceiling of a commercial building and just grab any handy 277v neutral (properly working and eventually tied to ground) with a load on it with one hand, and building steel with the other.
Here's a less deadly experiment:
On any residential 120v circuit with any load on it, try using a neon tester between and of that circuits outlets neutral and a known ground. WHY does the neon tester emit light if the neutrals are all, eventually, tied to ground?
There is a difference between "together" and electrically connected.
something was wrong.
of "something wrong"
without identifying
the circuit instead
circuit. If someone turns
_will_ be current in
Tried to ignore this, but can 't : Yes, there may well be current in the neutral, but ... if there is current, and nothing is wrong with the ckt, you will NOT get a shock by touching the neutral and any other wire/metal EXCEPT a hot one! Current may be flowing, but there will be very little voltage on it, if nothing is wrong with the ckt, to allow a shock to be felt. The voltage developed in a ckt with no problems will be less than one volt: not enough to give a shock that could hurt anyone, or even be felt, for that matter. Just because current flows in a wire does NOT mean you can get a shock off it. You must have voltage to cause current to flow, and the voltage to earth on a neutral wire is theoretically zero, usually a ver low voltage up to the rated current/temp of the wire. Only the wire's own resistance could develop any voltage potential.
Pop
something was wrong.
ground. Since
current you can get
through your body "is
amount of current,
the heart. Currents
suppose that GFCIs
argumentitive for the sake
will be about 60ma.
contact.
current will not be more
example, the millions of
the neutral; mine
hands are wet.
there isn't one.
Absolutely correct. A neutral is going to develop at most, per install specs, a maximum of about 1 volt in normal use. That's a hell of a lot less than say a 12V battery, or even the 48Vdc on your phone wires: The 48Vdc figure was arrived at as the highest "safe" voltage (actually it's 50VDC) that the human body can safely withstand. Again, he's talking current without consideration for any voltage potential necessary to cause current to flow. He knows enough to be dangerous, and safe, fortunately, inm this one case, but he's wrong. He needs to do some research before sounding off about "feels right" comments., Pop
dumb question, dumber analogy.
ground. Since ground
current you can get
any handy 277v
with a load on it with
using a neon tester
ground. WHY does the
eventually, tied to ground?
>Pop lets put this in perspective. He didn't say he got killed, only that he felt a shock. That is a lot lower current. Folks have sent him off on an easter egg hunt looking for a loose wirenut or other bad connection upstream without taking into account the one right in front of him that he was screwing with. If he really wants to check into this, button it up properly and check the lamp shell to ground.
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