Sheet vinyl vs. tile ??

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On Mon, 2 Sep 2013 00:02:19 -0600, "Hot-Text"

You way overstate the situation. I don't have a cement slab, but I have a cement floor in the basement. Same thing as a slab from the pov of floor covering, right?

The vinyl tile in the den/club-room is 34 years old and in perfect condition except for the ones along the edge near the laundry room, which got wet** *** When they were 24 years old, they were in perfect condition too.
**And two tiles at the base of the stairs which eventually got damaged when I threw hard heavy things down the stairs and hit the tiles.
***If you had said tile will get wet in a bathroom, I wouldnt' have argued with you, but you say it's bad for the whole basement.
For vinyl sheet, one can either use quarter round to keep the edges from curling up, or use adhesive near the edges, or conceivably for all I know, nothing is necesssary.

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wrote:

He only "overstates" it because there is no need to spend $3.50/sf. It can be done for less (or more). A "cement" (it's not "cement", rather "concrete") floor *is* a concrete slab.

You somehow think a bathroom floor won't get wet? Sheesh!

Ceramic probably isn't appropriate here, either, but it's not the bathroom, under discussion.

I agree with him. For a finished basement floor, I'd probably not use ceramic either but I certainly wouldn't use vinyl.

For a bathroom? No, it should be some sort of ceramic or maybe natural stone. If it's in a cold climate and the bathroom is used as a full bath (the tub or shower is really used), perhaps some heat in the floor, too.
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On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 12:34:44 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Some would say that a slab has to rest near the surface and have the entire house above it. But I gave Hot-Text the chance to agree that from the pov of floor covering, that distinction doesn't matter. I'm glad you don't think it matters either.

Hot-text was making recomendations for the whole basement. I would think you would have deleted this line after you read the footnote below.

Yes, for a bathroom.

Give me a break. It's clear the guy doesn't want to spend much money or put in much work. Some of the folks here are always recommending things that cost much more than others want to spend.

Thje floor is in place already. The last thing this guy is going to do is tear it up to put in heat. And again you're spending time and money he doesn't want to spend.
If his bare feet are cold, or he's taken a shower, that's what bath rugs are for.
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clear the guy doesn't want to spend much money

For me, I will never have the ceramic type of tile in a house again. I guess that I was too lazey to reseal the tile, but could not seem to keep the mold from forming in the spaces between the tile.Had to really stay after it to keep the mold out. That floor had tiles about 1 inch square and the tub/shower had about 4 inch tiles.
When I moved several years ago I remodled the bathroom. Had a good quality of sheet goods put down on the floor and a shower installed that was made out of the plastic stuff that passes for man made marble.
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On Mon, 2 Sep 2013 15:31:59 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"

Fix the problem not the symptom. I haven't had a mildew problem in the last three houses. The one before had problems with mildew on the bathroom walls and ceiling but none on the tile or grout. Fix the water problem and mildew is a thing of the past.

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wrote:

No, a "house built on a slab" indicates that there is no basement but that doesn't change the fact that a basement floor is a "concrete slab".

You just can't read. Try again.
"Small basement bathroom (5' x 8') on concrete slab, new ******** construction."
<snip>

Dumb. Really dumb.

Tile isn't at all expensive, particularly on a concrete floor and it will last a *lot* longer.

Irrelevant. It can be put in the mud under the tile. It doesn't change the issue, though. Vinyl is a *poor* choice for bathroom floors. It isn't a good choice anywhere in the home, IMO.

That's my choice, too but other people have different opinions. Some like warm tootsies.
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On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 16:02:11 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

I know you agree with me. But thanks for agreeing again.

This would bother me if I didn't know how you react to most people here.

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wrote:

Once you get your head out of your ass, perhaps. However, it's not evident that's happened yet.

<crickets>

With a statement of fact? It *is* dumb. Perhaps it wasn't fifty years ago but it certainly is today. Tile is cheap and the tools don't cost a fortune. This is a udoit group.

<crickets>

<crickets>

<crickets> No, it's apparent your head hasn't moved.
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>

> keep

>

> and

> quality of sheet goods put down on the floor and a shower installed that > was made out of the plastic stuff that passes for man made marble.

I have 21 bathrooms, all of which have ceramic tile on the walls around the bathtub/shower, and I have less mildew in all 21 bathrooms put together than you'll find in most single family homes.
You minimize mildew problems primarily by minimizing the amount of grout you have. I like to use 6X8 tiles because they're the largest tile that you can comfortably hold in one hand, while you back butter it with thin set with the other hand. By using 6X8 tiles in the landscape orientation instead of the more usual portrait orientation, not only do you get a custom look to your tiling, but you also reduce the length of grout line you have to seal to 1/3 of what it would be if you'd use 4 1/4 by 4 1/4 inch tiles. So, when the time comes to re-seal the grout, the job takes two days instead of a week.
You should also be aware that no all grout sealers are equal. Most places will peddle silicone based grout sealers. The problem is that when you want to reseal your grout, nothing will stick to a silicone based grout sealer, not even more silicone based grout sealer. So if you use a silicone based grout sealer, you're limiting the life span of your tiling because you can't effectively re-seal the grout lines to add more protection without stripping off the old silicone based grout sealer first, and that's a lot of work. ACRYLIC grout sealers don't have that problem, and I've been using nothing but acrylic film forming grout sealers on all the bathroom tiling in my building since 1986. In fact, I'm going to be resealing a bathroom in an empty suite tomorrow. The last time that bathroom grout was sealed according to my records was 1998, or about 15 years ago.
The above paragraph applies to "film forming" grout sealers which simply form a clear plastic film over the grout. Penetrating sealers supposedly last longer, but my experience with them is that I got conflicting indictions as to whether the penetrating sealer was being absorbed properly when I tried to apply it, so I lost confidence in them. When it comes to having mildew growing rampant all over my bathroom tiling, I much prefer a simpler technology that I fully understand than a newer technology that I don't. That way, if there's a problem, I can solve it myself.
Mildew growth on your bathroom painted walls and ceilings is NOT usually a water problem. It's a paint problem. If you use a paint made specifically for use in bathrooms, it will have a powdered mildewcide added to it which gradually leeches out of the paint film fast enough to kill any mildew spores that land on the paint but slow enough to keep the paint mildew-free for a long time. Zinssers guarantees their PermaWhite Bathroom paint will keep your painted bathroom walls free of mildew for 5 years, but if it only lasts that long, you got a defective can of paint, or you shot yourself in the foot by putting on only a single coat. If I've taken the trouble to mask off my tiling, my door frame, my toilet paper dispenser and my light fixture, then I'm gonna put 3 or 4 coats of bathroom paint on to ensure I have a HUGE reservoir of mildewcide on that wall which will gradually leech out, giving me 15 to 20 years of mildew free; not just 5. After all, once all the masking tape is on, how much work is it to put on another coat or three if you do all your corners with a 3 inch roller and the walls and ceilings in that tiny room with a 10 inch roller. Hint: Getting the bathroom ready for the first coat takes a full day of removing towel rods and taping off what you can't remove from the walls and ceilings. Putting on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th coats and removing all that masking tape can be done the following day.
"Man made marble" is called "Corian" if it's made by DuPont, and other trade names depending on who made the stuff. It's actually a thick slab of Plexiglas to which natural clays have been added during manufacture to give it a "marbled" appearance. So, man made marble is really just adulterated Plexiglas. Never use nail polish remover at a Corian bathroom counter top. That's because nail polish remover is acetone, and Plexiglas is polymethyl methacrylate. Acetone dissolves polymethyl methacrylate. The good thing is that polymethyl methacrylate is a soft enough plastic that you can polish damage out of it much more easily than you could with a granite counter top.
--
nestork


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clipped

I've never used "bathroom" paint, only alkyd semi for baths/kitchens/doors/trim. We had a very mildewy shower stall until we put a timer on the exhaust fan. Previously, it operated on/off, and if we left it on, we would forget to go back to turn it off. At the same time, we had some pin-hole defects in the 35 y/o grout (neighbors in our condo, all with same tile jobs, had major wall damage due to deteriorated grout) so I regrouted the 1x2" grout. Don't remember what sealer I used. Made a point to leave the shower curtain open on both ends, and spread out loosely, which allows better ventilation.
I'm not arguing with your method, but my logic tells me that mildew is far less likely to grow on a smooth, dry surface. Alkyd is pretty impermeable, so a bleach wash/rinse prior to painting is good insurance to not paint OVER mildew.....it is the universal method of painting exteriors in Florida where mildew grows in about 5 min. without direct sunlight.
Four coats? If two don't do the job, two more won't help at all.

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On Tue, 3 Sep 2013 10:22:46 +0200, nestork

I've had none in two decades. It's a ventilation or insulation problem. If those two are done correctly, no mildew. There is no fan in the main part of the bathroom in my other house and I never use it in this one. No mildew.

No, you minimize it by making sure the walls/ceiling don't stay wet. High gloss surfaces help (tile is about as mildew resistant as it gets - unfortunately, grout isn't so good).
Tile is done for aesthetics. ISTM that 6x8 landscape will look odd. Is "Subway tile" 2:3 or 1:2? I prefer larger tile (12x12 or even 18x18) but the room has to be big enough to handle it.
Back-butter? Whatever for?

If there is sealer there, why would you want to add more? If there are holes in it, then it'll take more sealer.

I've always used the penetrating type.

It's *ALWAYS* a water problem. No water => no mildew.

If that were the case, mildew would never form on grout, or tile (it rarely does).
<snip>

Huh? Why would I ever use acetone on Corian and what does either have to do with mildew? OTOH, I would never install Corian, so...
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if it was my basement bathroom I would go with natural stone it would look good on that cold slab of concrete

But it matter A slab can be 1'x 1' x 1" it call a 1' slab be it above the house or below the house it will always be a 1' concrete slab true
But where the surface of the concrete slab is always matter
Would you put vinyl Sheet or vinyl Tile on a surface of the concrete slab above the house You know we call it the Roof
Now a basement bathroom is below the house not in the house
Now I know you not doing to roof the basement floor
is it matter and always will

Yes the whole basement Not the whole house Quality control
the den/club-room is in the house and above ground "right" Not in same Environment as a basement or roof

it's ok he spending time and money in about two year to tear it up and put new floor
For Quality control all surfaces

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On Tue, 3 Sep 2013 05:42:32 -0600, "Hot-Text"

That's personal taste thing. I like natural stone, too, but have never used it on a floor. The big thing is that it should have a substantial texture.

It's on dirt. ;-)

A concrete slab roof? In a *house*. Roofing material should have significant weight, but that's ridiculous! ;-)

It is *in* the living space of the house. A crawl space is "under" the house.

Huh?
<remainder is too hard to follow - snipped>
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On Mon, 2 Sep 2013 00:02:19 -0600, "Hot-Text"

That's "expensive" stuff. I've seen decent looking stuff at the BORG for as little as $1/safe.

I have it in two bathrooms and the laundry (the other two baths are ceramic - don't know why the builder did that). All three need to be replaced (none are on a slab). The house is only six years old. Vinyl is crap for bathrooms.
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On Sun, 1 Sep 2013 07:07:04 -0700 (PDT), Ivan Vegvary

For a bathroom? No question; tile, ceramic style. It's not hard to install (it's a lot of work but it's not difficult). It's the *only* flooring for a bathroom.
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On 9/1/2013 10:07 AM, Ivan Vegvary wrote:

IMO, sheet vinyl is, by far, easiest to install. I have never seen vinyl tiles that looked good, and those with pre-applied adhesive stick once they touch the floor. I seemed to recall that sheet came in 6' widths, so did a google search. Lowes here sells it, not very expensive. If sheet is difficult to install, then you probably don't want to consider ceramic, which would be a great choice. Gotta make sure the concrete is without lumps or ridges.
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wrote:

Nonsense. Ceramic tile is a piece of cake, particularly on a surface that's already prepared (concrete floor). It can be somewhat more work if the floor isn't stable enough but a concrete slab is easy.
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That's the way I feel about most DIY. I'd go broke doing the work for a living but I I'll do it because it's fun, and I can do a better job (spend more time, buy better materials, etc.) than I can afford otherwise. One of the things I won't do (anymore) is roofing. Too much work and *NO* fun.
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>

> grout

You can wipe the walls down with a towel after a shower in your own home, but how does that help if you're a landlord and your tenants don't bother doing that after they shower? And, most tenants in my building don't know what the bathroom ceiling fan is even for.

> thin

When I tile walls, what I'll do is lay out tiles on the floor both end to end and side to side with plastic grout spacers between them. That way, I can measure my wall and know exactly how many tiles wide and how many tiles high I'll be doing in each sitting. I like to do it that way so that I get regular breaks every 15 to 20 minutes during which I don't have any thin set sitting uncovered on the wall and drying up on me. I will mark off the area of the wall I'll be tiling, and then spread thin set on that area of the wall. Then I back butter each tile and press it into the thin set that's already on the wall.
That way, it doesn't matter if the thin set on the wall skins over while it's waiting to be covered by tile, the moisture of the fresh thin set on the back of the tile will reactivate the skinned over thin set on the wall, and the two will stick as well as if I had pressed fresh wet thin set into fresh wet thin set.
Without back buttering the tiles, I'd end up pushing dry tiles into thin set that's already skinned over, and the result would be tiles that aren't sticking well to the wall. By back buttering the tiles, I avoid that problem completely so that the last tile I set in that bed of thin set sticks as well as the first one.

> usual portrait orientation, not only do you get a custom look to your > tiling, but you also reduce the length of grout line you have to seal to > 1/3 of what it would be if you'd use 4 1/4 by 4 1/4 inch tiles.

Not at all. Whenever I show a suite where I've tiled the bathroom with 6X8 tiles in landscape mode, I often get people saying things like "Cool!", or "I like that." It's just that you so seldom see rectangular tiles installed in landscape mode that seeing it done that way gives it a "unique" look right off the bat, and people like that. It immediately dawns on them that whomever did that tiling had more than an amateur's level of experience doing that kind of work, and that helps me rent apartments. People like the idea of a landlord that's also an accomplished DIY'er because it means that the building will be well maintained and they won't have to wait for a month to get a leak fixed.

> add

You're thinking of a penetrating sealer.
Film forming sealers form a plastic film over the surface of the grout, just like paint. The shower spray will gradually erode that film so that at some point it will be necessary to apply more sealer to restore the waterproof film over the grout. Silicone based grout sealers stick well to grout, but nothing sticks well to them, not even another coat of silicone based grout sealer. So, if you use a silicone based grout sealer, and you start to notice mildew starting to grow on the grout, it's because the sealer has been eroded in those areas that the mildew can grow into the porous surface of the grout where it's hard to remove. In that case, you have three options; apply more silicone based grout sealer and hope for the best, strip off the old grout sealer with acetone and put on a brand new coat of grout sealer, or start cleaning the mildew off the bathroom tiling with bleach.
In my humble opinion, silicone based grout sealers should be taken off the market because the only people that use them are tiling contractors, and people who naively trust that their tiling contractor knows which products work best.
I use acrylic grout sealer on all my bathrooms, and not only will new acrylic grout sealer stick well to old acrylic grout sealer, but having a film of acrylic grout sealer makes the bathroom ceramic tile really easy to clean. I pour some phosphoric acid based toilet bowl cleaner into a 10inch paint tray and use a 10 inch wide nylon brush on a 2 foot long windshield washing squeegee pole to scrub the walls with phosphoric acid. The phosphoric acid cuts through soap scum like a hot knife through butter, but won't harm chrome, and it won't eat the grout because of that film of acrylic plastic between the acid and the grout. Then I spray the ceramic tiling down with a spray gun hooked up to the 250 psi pump on my carpet shampoo'er, and then vaccuum squeegee the water off the ceramic tiling, ceiling and floor with my Taski "Vertica" tool, which is basically a rubber squeegee you can connect a vaccuum hose to. (I normally have my carpet shampoo'er in an empty apartment cuz I typically shampoo the living room carpet with it, so I also use it's pump and wet suction to clean the bathroom ceramic tiling.)

> usually

I meant that mildew growth on bathroom walls and ceilings is not a problem with water leakage out of a plumbing pipe or the result of a roof leak. Yes, you need water to have mildew, but mildew growth won't be a problem in bathrooms where people have baths instead of showers.
The reason for this is because people use bar soaps in the bath and shower. Bar soaps are made with vegetable oils such as Palm and Olive oil (from which the Palmolive Company gets it's name. Vegetable oils are a food source for various kinds of fungi, including those that we call "bathroom mildew". While you also use bar soap when having a bath, you don't get the bar soap all over the walls and ceilings, which is what happens when you wash that bar soap off your body with a spray of water from a shower head.
In my experience, I can always tell when a tenant is having showers instead of baths by the growth of mildew on the silicone around the tub, on the grout lines of the ceramic tiling (cuz soap scum will accumulate there). The mist from the shower sticks to all those areas, depositing soap residue in all those places and mildew feeds on that soap because it's made of natural vegetable oils.

> made specifically for use in bathrooms, it will have a powdered > mildewcide added to it which gradually leeches out of the paint film > fast enough to kill any mildew spores that land on the paint but slow > enough to keep the paint mildew-free for a long time.

Mildew grows especially thick on ceramic tile grout, but only if that tiling is around a shower. I take baths. I've had maybe 3 showers in 25 years. There is no mildew on any of the ceramic tiling in my bathroom, and it's entirely because there is no food (namely vegetable oils) on the ceramic tiling in my bathroom for the mildew to eat. Nothing can survive without food.
But, as soon as you get someone in that bathroom having showers with bar soap, then the mildew will start to grow right away, if not on the grout lines because they're sealed, then on the silicone caulk around the tub or shower.
You can buy skin cleansers that don't have any vegetable oils in them. Most drug stores sell Cetaphil and/or Aquanil, and both of these advertise themselves as "lipid free skin cleansers". Loosely speaking, a "lipid" is a triglyceride, which is what a vegetable oils and animal fats are. So, by using a lipid free skin cleanser like Cetaphil or Aquanil, you can still have showers without mildew growing all over the place because the mist that gets all over the walls and ceilings won't contain any food to sustain mildew growth and reproduction. Essentially, by switching from bar soap to a lipid free skin cleanser, you can prevent mildew growth in your bathroom by denying the mildew a food supply.
--
nestork


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especially thick on ceramic tile grout, but only if that

That probably explains why I had so much trouble with the mildew and mold in a tiled bathroom in my other house. With 4 people taking 99% showers with that bars soap, the mildew had plenty of 'food'.
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