Secret password for hiring a plumber?

[BocesLib]

I was in the same boat as you..... I was in the process of building a bathroom in my basement. I needed a ejector pump, the sewer lines and hot/ cold copper run. I got a quote from a friends plumber for

1400.00 for the whole job. I jumped on it! This guy promised he'd show for weeks at a time and nothing. I called other plumbers in to get estimates, they never showed either. After a week or so, I just said the hell with this crap, took a sledge hammer and started the job myself. Needless to say, I did it all. I even got a few perminant scars (hot solder + skin = OOOOUCH!) on my arm for the job. In the mean time I did get a number for a Master plumper that charges allot of money. At least this guy shows and does good work. If I have MAJOR problems at least I have someone to call.

Its a rare find to get one of these guys in (and shows) for a decent price.

I did upgrade my service in my home to 200amp. The electrician was recommended by a coworker (his brother inlaw)

The guy showed, did a great job and didnt rip me off at all. In my appreciation I got him a few more jobs (residental and commercial)

[RicodJour]

You just wrote that anyone that comes to your house is going to charge you too much. What are you suggesting? Bring the bathroom to them?

Nothing like a blanket statement to start off a post. It immediately let's people know where you stand so they can determine if they want to keep reading or not.

You left out materials. Besides the labor and subs, the other things are called overhead - the cost of doing business. You left out insurance, licensing, vehicles and other equipment, etc., etc.

I'm not sure if you're talking about profit, contingency amounts or gouging. Of course it could just be that whatever amount they charged would be too much for you.

Taking what could be excessive amounts of time to complete a task is not doing a better job. If you ignore time, and look at just the quality of the work, it's still doubtful that a novice, in any line of work, could perform work better than someone who has done it hundreds or thousands of times before. If you believe otherwise, it's either your ego talking or you really don't know how to evaluate the work being done.

My time is worth more than your average tradesman's hourly rate. If you consider your own time to have no value, then you're right, doing your own work will be a modest price. This is the standard self-deluding position of most people that crow about their savings doing their own work. If you factor in the time it takes them to do the work, multiply that by how much they earn at their regular job and add that to the project cost, there is rarely a savings. Unless the person earns very little to start with.

Finishing off your post with another obviously fallacious blanket statement always helps people classify your position.

thanks

R

[Banty]

It strikes me that if you:

1. Have a lot of time
2. Have the skills
3. Either enjoy it (lots of people do, bless them) or have no competing spare time interests

or alternatively:

a. Just plain cheap beyond all reason and at any non-monetary cost

...what he says makes sense (except the thing about seemingly objecting to contractors making a living....)

But I

1. Don't have a lot of time
2. Dont' have many skills (great painting skills) and don't particularly care for every project being a learning experience and my house being my guinea pig
3. Sure have a long list of stuff I love to do in my spare time otherwise

and

a. Am not stupid-cheap.

So I have in the 11 years I've lived in this house built up a good list of good skilled folks. And a pretty good knack for discerning who's good and who's not and getting good value.

Banty

[RicodJour]

Well said.

R

[Todd H.]

Seems so. I can count the number of trades folk that had any customer service clue whatsoever on one hand.

The first plumber gave you the "I feel pretty overwhelmed, go away or make it worth my while" quote it seems.

If somehow you can root out someone who takes side jobs, that might be the way to go, but that can be hard without having a buddy in the trades.

Best Regards,

-- Todd H.

[No]

Doug, where you at? I've got a guy I use. SE PA. I actually found him through the online referral service called "service magic" The referral service actually worked well for me.

-B

[Doug Kanter]

What is it with plumbers?

I need a short list of plumbing jobs done, varying in difficulty level from "I could do it, but I'd rather not", to "WAY beyond my skills".

Plumber 1: Gave estimate of $1500.00, and about 6 hours of work. Said his rate was $60 per hour, and materials for the work are around $100. For purposes of discussion, I did the math allowing for 10 hours (because you never know), and questioned why the estimate was twice as much as likely. He said "That's just what it costs. Let me know if you want to do it".

Plumber 2: Highly recommended by a number of people. Never showed up to look at what needed to be done, even though I work at home and could've accomodated his visit ANY TIME that was convenient for him.

Plumber 3: Another referral. Stopped by (mid-July), looked at what needed to be done. I told him that I needed an estimate not because I was price shopping (because I'm really not), but so that I could budget the work, and know whether to do it in pieces, or all at once. Said he understood, said he'd call back with prices, never called back. His assistant keeps saying he will, but it's August 26th and......

Anyway, are we all in the wrong business? Do these guys really have so much work that they can be this way with potential customers?

[Banty]

Yep.

And could you ever convince her that the problem was that she was being stupid-cheap to begin with?

....I'm placing my bet..

Banty

[Sacramento Dave]

It seems the whole small contractor thing , the one man shop,the I'll be right out guy. Has turned into a business of flakes. If it's a matter of not wanting to do little jobs, why bother going out to look. Some of those small jobs are a pain in the ass, bid them to be a pain. They are the kind of guys that want to work until they get a job.

[User Example]

Plumbers, A/C repairmen, electricians, bug killers, and anyone else that will come to your house to do their job is going to charge you too much for the work. You are paying for the worker, his supervisor, the people who subcontracted them, the secretary, their "experience", and some extra just to rip you off.

Some of the work they do takes skill and some things they can do better because they know some tricks of the trade. But for the most part there isn't anything that you can't do as well or better. They will almost always rush a job. You have the luxury of taking our time.

Bottom line, if you want quality work at a modest price then you are going to have to do it yourself. You can find people to hire that will do excellent work but they will overcharge the heck out of you.

[Vic Dura]

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 12:51:13 GMT, "Doug Kanter" wrote Re Secret password for hiring a plumber?:

Yes. Avoid them if possible. They obviously don't want you business. Ask your neighbors for referrals to competent "handy man" type people. Alternatively, look in the classifieds. If you have to get a "stranger" start him with your smallest job first. See how that goes make a decision based on that.

[RicodJour]

"dumb ass migrant works"...? Let's see...dumbass is one word; they're not migrant, they're immigrants; and they're workers. Works is the equipment you apparently shoot up with.

You must have meant that you're smarter than all of us _put together_. That's the usual bleating cry of the self-absorbed.

You're obviously incapable of evaluating the value of the work itself, why am I not surprised that you are incapable of evaluating the value of differing opinions? When someone points out your myopia, you call them blind.

Maybe you should post a question and see if you can separate the wheat from the chaff. Unless, of course, you came here with all of the answers and don't need to ask questions. In that case, feel free to start a new newsgroup. I believe alt.it's.mine.mine.mine is available.

R

[Banty]

Charming.

Do you need to do this to feel good about yourself? Mebbe after seeing the same color latex slathered all over your house, ceiling, walls, and moulding? Or something like that?

If you're so super-skilled (or, alternatively, your family has acquiesced to amateurish repairs and work), great. You're set.

So - here's the question - why are you here berating everyone? What are you getting out of it?? You shoudln't have enough time, what with planning your vacations and all...

My theory - the one who has the skills to DIY *well*, is just the guy or gal to appreciate a good professional job. But he does it himself, for the reasons I listed in my other post, like, he likes to do it. And knows the effort and planning and problem-solving that goes into it. Painting's my thing. Tradespeople I know who see my house assume it's been done professionally; and I do it for friends. But there's still been a job or too I hired out. Why? Because I appreciate the time and skill it takes to do it right, and I didn't have time for doing it right.

Based on my theory, a guy who lambasts everyone who *doesn't* DIY and people in the trades, would have as characteristics, by comparison.... ...the rest to be left as an exercise for the reader.

Cheers, Banty

[Doug Kanter]

Interesting site. I'm in Rochester NY.

[Doug Kanter]

I'd try the "major" part of the work, but it involves removing massive iron drain pipes from the 1st floor bathroom down to the cellar and replacing with PVC. I'm really leary of totally disabling the only bathroom in the house for more than a day, and as we know, EVERYTHING takes more than a day when you're learning. And, I really don't know my new neighbors well enough to ask if we can plan on using their bathroom for an entire weekend. I've done faucets and other lightweight stuff, but this is a whole 'nother thing.

[John Willis]

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:11:44 GMT, User Example scribbled this interesting note:

On the contrary, these too take skill and care if they are to be done correctly. Since when is carpentry a low skilled job? Seem to me that it takes a large amount of time, practice, and experience to become a carpenter worthy of the job title.

As for painting, a poorly done paint job will flake off in a year or less. A well done paint job takes time, skill, and the willingness to do a good job. After all, the more you know, the better the end result.

I've seen far too many examples of poor work done by homeowners, who have good intentions to be sure, who knew that just because a hammer or a paint brush will fit into his or her hand, that they are qualified to be carpenters or painters. The results are uniformly predictable...

-- John Willis [e-mail] (Remove the Primes before e-mailing me)

[Red Cloud©]

You can buy a porta-pottie for about $50-$75 that will get you through the project.

The larger model will be closer to normal toilet height, and won't have to be emptied as often. You can buy thes online or at any RV or Marine Supply store, such as West Marine, or BoatUS.

For that matter, if you will be saving a grand or two by doing this yourself, you can get a motel room for a few nights. You don't even have to sleep there - just use it as a remote bathroom for showers and such.

rusty redcloud

[User Example]

Well, it looks like you determined that you want to read it. Matter of fact, you even took time to critique everything I said.

Yes, that is my point exactly... stuff that as a DIYer you don't have to pay for.

When you figure out the cost of time and materials and compare that to what they charge you, there will always be a big gap. Where does that money go? It certainly isn't going to the work they do on your house and that is a rip off.

I have had some good work done and some bad work done. In general, high skilled work like A/C work gets done well. Low skilled work like painting and carpentry gets done sub par. But in the end, it's a gamble and usually never perfect. And perfection is what I expect when I am paying for it.

Well, I wasn't implying that you should do the job during your working hours. If you do it during that time when you are usually jerking off or wasting time analyzing peoples USENET posts then I am not so sure your time is worth more... but then again, maybe you value that jerking time.

Call it what you want but it is generally true. I don't have time to quantify every statement and place disclaimers on everything I say. Maybe you do, or is your time too valuable?

[Doug Kanter]

Can I bring a hooker? :-)

[Philip Lewis]

Couple solutions: Get an "elderly user" portable toilet. It's like a cross between a walker and a toilet. essentially a toilet seat with a support frame surround and a bucket which can be removed when in need of emptying. (Used essentially the same way as a chamber pot when they can't get from the bed to toilet quickly)

Or, you could take a hint from your cat. Get a contractor bucket, and a bag of kitty litter. Use the bucket as needed, and cover with kitty litter. If your squeamish, throw the whole thing out when you are finished with the job.

Or, Make everyone use it before the iron is removed, and plan on going out for lunch/dinner.

I'd try to arrange for liquids to be bottled and/or disposed of outside. (if you have a drain in the basment floor connected to the sewage system, you could empty things there if outside isn't private enough.) (Don't empty the kitty litter into the sewage)

Just a few thoughts.