Screwing Down Backerboad for Tile... (Rant)

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So is it me, or is there a trick to putting down the backer board for tile?
Those 'self counter-sinking' screws are worthless as far as trying to self counter-sinking. To get them flush we ended up predrilling holes for the Screw shaft and a bigger counter -sink hole for the screw head.
Is that how its done? Without pre-drilling we could not get the Screws to Counter-sink.
I've tried with both regular cement board and hardybacker board.
Thanks, Scott<
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On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 17:45:02 GMT, "Scott Townsend"

Normal.
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On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 17:45:02 GMT, "Scott Townsend"

Drill choice?
Oren
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We used a Cordless 18v Makita... Drilled the Counter Sink holes then went back and drilled the screw shaft hole. This allows the backer board to be sucked down to the subfloor.
Scott<-
wrote:

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Uh... I hate to ask at this point, but if the backer board had a textured side, you installed it UP. right?
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snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com says...

Dots up (they mark the nominal screw locations). The side the sticker is on is down, IIRC.
--
Keith

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Yep, Dot side up.
Still PIA to put the Screws in. Even if on the dot...
Scott<-
says...

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I use the alternate recommendation of 1-1/4 inch galvanized roofing nails. A lot easier and that hardibacker isn't going anyplace. And the job will be a lot easier at some time in the future if anyone wants to take it up.
Scott Townsend wrote:

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scott-i@.-N0-SPAMplease.enm.com says...

After drilling pilot holes for a bathroom-and-a-half, laundry, and a couple of closets, I tried just screwing the "backer-on" screws in directly. I had a few that didn't sink all the way (used a spackling knife to "feel" for the heads and had to replace them. It went pretty yeasy, except when I was a little out of position and the driver slipped; nice blood blister on my left index finger. :-(
--
Keith

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This concern over the heads protruding is unnecessary remember you are going to have at the very, very least a 16th of an inch of adheasion material to lay the tile in, maybe/probably much more depending what you use. DO NOT USE NAILS on the floor the will not hold... your primary concern about the skrews should be that thy are in snug with NO movement if the head is sticking out slightly dont sweat it. krw wrote:

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snipped-for-privacy@netzero.net says...

Perhaps, but it's easier to make sure there is *nothing* protruding. Screws are cheap.

Once the screws are seen snugging the board down to the floor, one understands that nails won't work. Again, screws are cheap.

It was easier to rescrew those sticking up, or replace the screws.
--
Keith

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How thick a coat of mortar/adhesive will you use? Thinner than the protruding screw heads? Tom Scott Townsend wrote:

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You don't screw it in. You nail it with galv roofing nails.
Excerpt from: http://www.jameshardie.com/backerboard/homeowner/hardibacker_installation .php
FASTENERS
For floors and walls:
* Minimum 1-1/4" long corrosion-resistant roofing nails. * Minimum 1-1/4" long No. 8 x 0.375" HD self-drilling corrosion- resistant ribbed waferhead screws. * If compliance with ANSI A108.11 is not required, minimum 1" long No. 8 x 0.323" HD self-drilling corrosion-resistant ribbed buglehead screws may be used for floors. * If applying 1/2" Hardibacker cement board over gypsum, use minimum 1-3/4" long corrosion-resistant roofing nails.
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Your reference also mentioned screws.
Why wouldn't you use screws?
I use 2 1/2" #8 deck screws, no predrill. That may be overkill, but the subfloors NEVER move, they wouldn't dare ;-)
Standard drywall screws are thin with shallow threads, and I think too short. As such, under these sorts of stresses (eg: differential joist movement), they can pull out.
I've seen 3/4" plywood floors done with 1 1/2" or 1 3/4" #10 "standard" screws that can be (or have) popped out with relatively little difficulty. Hence my preference for 2 1/2" deck screws. Better threads and longer length.
Phillips heads are evil, and should be banned ;-)
Long live square head deck screws!
I wouldn't dream of using nails. Unless ring shanked. But screws are better overall.
[My 12V dewalt is fully capable of taking a 3" #12 robertson/square head and driving it all the way through a 2x4, head and all without any predrilling. It only stops when it runs out of thread in contact with the lumber - the shank - on the other side ;-).]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It\'s not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
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Chris Lewis wrote:

You can do that with hardibacker? Deck screws would be impossible. Even self countersinking screws have a hard time with it.
http://www.ontariotile.com/cbuhardibacker.html
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snipped-for-privacy@nortelnetworks.com (Chris Lewis) wrote in

You're right.

When I fixed the last "see through to back of other shower wall" I tried screws. Always prefer screws. When I had the head issues, mfgr's instructions said roofing nails OK. Since it was a wall and not floor, I went for it. Worked fine without all the predrilling and countersinking.
For a floor, I'd want them screws and would pre-whatever is necessary.

Damn things are so thin nowadays, sometimes they snap going in deep wood with the longer screws not threaded to the top. You pull out some 3" screws from old cabinets and it looks & feels like a bolt compared to one today.
Too short? Can't find them where I am now but back in VT I used to get them up 8 & 9" long. Used them for various things like restoring old real wood shutters where the rails have to be replaced and screwed through the wide styles.
As such, under these sorts of stresses (eg: differential

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Back in the old days, screws were cut threads, and the shank was the same diameter as the outer edge of the threads. These days they're "rolled" (I think this is the terminology), and the shank is the same diameter as the inner diameter of the thread (more or less). Old types really doesn't buy you a heck of a lot. Except having drill pilot holes far more often, and to use three drills (thread, shank and countersink) instead of two when compared to new type.
Furthermore, due to the manufacturing process, they had to make them thicker to avoid defects weakening the screws. For the most part, you don't need screws that beefy.
But you can certainly still get screws that heavy - #12s and #14s. I almost never use those.

You can get ordinary #14s up to about 5". There are longer ones - "gutter screws". Lee Valley has them to at least 7".
Aside from that, the industry has switched to lag screws.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It\'s not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
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Scott Townsend wrote:

Hmm - I just screw it down w/o pre-drilling. I have used an 18V Milwaukee drill and more recently a Makita 18VLTX impact driver. I used the backer board screws. I drive them flush or slightly below the surface. This leaves a bit of ground up, displaced, material on the surface. I knock that off with a 6" putty knife and sweep the floor before I begin the tile job. I prefer the screws with square drive.
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Which leads us to ask; Is the drill stalling when you try to drive the screws all the way in, or are they stripping the holes?
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Scott Townsend wrote:

WOW you need help.
First off are you in USA or Canada OR what. This is for floor right? or are you putiing this stuff in the shower or tub areas?
Dont use that stuff on the floor, find proper sub floor. There is no need for that, do you honestley think this will save your floor, in won't. Im a builder I know. Water and air are two things you can't compete with and what will happen is you will transfer water damage from the center of the floor to the walls thus causing leaks to run inside your walls rather than just the floor where you walk and you can tell when something isn't right. Your subfloor should be a good thickness i don't mean 1/2 inch but a good 1/4 inch and the right ply subfloor (wood). In case no one has told you *Hint* you can glue it down just maybe? *Hint*. It all depends on the crafmanship and the type of tile. Your floor should be wood and that should most surley be screwed off first in 8 inch increments, with no heads hanging out and hammer in the stubborn ones. This will eliminate movement and squeeks. Then lay down your sub, a craftsman would be able to glue it with a bull dog adhesive must be the right type, there is a percission way of placing the glue to keep it level with out waves in floor and so on. If your not comfortable with the glue then use SUB FLOOR RING NAILS nothing else. If you prior screwing efforts wasn;t working its most likely your strippng them or there is not enough bite material underneath and may require you to find the joisting and screw in that and but not least just poor choice in screws. There are differences like course, fine, clean neck (which will not work) they must be fully threaded. Is your main floor plywood or planking this would make a hell of a difference.
Hope this helps you!
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