Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III

Page 5 of 6  
Puddin' Man wrote:

Not really...tap, tap, tap...clamp, clamp, clamp...tap, tap, tap. Just keep it level/flat/straight as you do so. _____________

IMO, you want epoxy. With a thickener. I've never timed it but epoxy sets up very slowly, I'd think you'd have a minimum of 30 minutes and even then it doesn't set hard, just starts to get syrupy. It won't get hard for a day; REALLY hard for several days.
It does set faster with heat and setting generates heat - more mass = more heat - so don't put it in a narrow deep container if you want maximum time.
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dadiOH
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Or a styrofoam cup.
We used cut the bottom few inches off of plastic containers, like gallons jugs of orange juice, etc.
Tip: spread Vaseline on any area where you don't want the epoxy to stick. Wax paper works too.
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Thickener?
Current candidate: (Amazon.com product link shortened)42895979&sr=8-1&keywords=t-88+epoxy
P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
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(Amazon.com product link shortened)42895979&sr=8-1&keywords=t-88+epoxy
As you are so fond of saying:
No!
When we say "thickener" we mean a filler such as one of the West Systems fillers shown here:
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/fillers /
These powdery products are added to the 2 part epoxy mix to form a thicker, sometimes spreadable epoxy mix. I've mixed it as thick as peanut butter when I've needed no running or drooping.
Typically the filler and epoxy is purchased from the same manufacturer to ensure compatibility.
If you go to a real boating supply store, they will carry West Systems or something similar. They'll have resin, hardener and various fillers for various applications.
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On Sun, 22 Jul 2012 04:27:22 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03

flox, or micro-balloons. Personally I like the wood flour.
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Puddin' Man wrote:

As I've said at least twice before, fumed silica (Cabosil/Aerosil), micro balloons, talc, wood dust, etc. I use Cabosil mostly. http://www.uscomposites.com/fillers.html
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On 7/22/2012 8:42 AM, dadiOH wrote: ...

OK, "inquiring minds" and all that... :)
What do you do that uses such stuff regularly?
I suppose if had had somesuch thing available way_back when doing the restore work it could have been handy a few times, but I've never seemed to miss it...
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dpb wrote:

I don't use it regularly, just from time to time.
I built a stitch & glue pram a few years ago, needed Cabosil to thicken epoxy for fillets and other purposes, had some left over. Since then I have used it a few times one instance being when I cut a complicated piece of molding incorrectly. Easy to put it back together so I could re-cut. There have been other times too, don't recall the details.
Epoxy is also great when you have something that is difficult to clamp since the parts only need to be stationary, not clamped.
Basically, a jug of epoxy, some Cabosil and some talc are handy things to have around. The talc makes a great grain filler...mix it with a binder such as poly or lacquer, let it dry and it will sand very easily to baby ass smooth. Less binder/more talc is good as a glazing putty for deeper areas, same thing as many automotive glazing putties at $10-$15 per tube.
Stitch & glue explanation... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stitch_and_glue
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dadiOH
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The leftovers were the best part of my stitch and glue adventure. That & the knowledge gained in the process. The little Bolger's Nymph only saw the water a couple times before I ditched her.

And here's the style I made- [not mine] http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/nymphtjf.htm
I don't regret the time spent building it-- but it wasn't what I *really* needed.
Jim
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No "stitch and glue" here but a lot of fiberglass and West Systems epoxy and filler was used.
I'm pretty sure it won't float though. ;-)
2nd picture is my son winning the World Championship in Akron, Ohio
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/LocalRamps.jpg
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/FinalHeatAkron.jpg
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/AkronTrophy.jpg
There's no way I'll ever regret the time spent building - and racing - it with him.
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On 7/21/2012 12:32 PM, Puddin' Man wrote: ...

Depends on which of which... :)
Titebond III is quoted at 10 min open time at 70F/50%RH. That ought to be plenty of time if you've done the dry fitting and have things set up and at hand when you start.
There are epoxies of longer and shorter open times but you'll have to be sure you've got enough mixed for the app as likely you'll begin to push even it if you have to stop/measure/mix another batch in the middle of the go.
If I were worried I'd assemble one side dry and only glue the other one in a single pass.
Again, you _MUST_ have done the dry assembly at least a couple of times and be satisfied you have the clamps in the right spots and everything at hand before starting and that you're satisfied of the result before you glue one pin.
I also will generally go ahead and pre-glue the pins in the rails as that's the most time consuming of application then you've only got the vertical rail to deal with for the assembly.
I can't emphasize enough that you will _not_ take that apparent misalignment out if the dowels are either loose or out of kilter w/ glue--if it doesn't go together right dry, it'll not be right in the end so cure those problems first.
--
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On 7/20/2012 5:13 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:

Red oak is _NOT_ a good choice for this purpose--it rots like crazy w/ any moisture at all. White oak would be ok, one of the nonporous hardwoods (birch, etc.) or even pine would be far better choice.

I seriously doubt if the door originally was put together w/ out-of alignment holes...if it were, then it would have been flat when new and that's just not believable it wasn't...

That's _precisely_ why I kept telling you that one tool you definitely needed was/is a doweling jig; it is not possible to drill into punky stuff accurately freehand and damn near it even if the wood is good. The difference in hardness between a dowel end grain trying to drill it out will cause the bit to skate and if the dowel is gone but the wood isn't really solid there just isn't enough resistance you can't feel it if you're not perfectly aligned.
I'd guess your best bet now would be to glue dowels into and fill the tight holes you have made and start again w/ a doweling jig. Again as I've pointed out numerous times, use a smaller bit initially than the final size to ensure you're accurately centered.
The jig will guide the bit allowing the holes to be parallel to the faces; perpendicular to the edges.
If you do the infill, you can go back to a half for a final which the jig you already have may be able to accomodate. If not, I posted a link to one that does have 5/8" capability.
As another said (as well as I suggested it was likely worth the effort to make one for the spacing as well as for the alignment :) ) if you have a drill press you should be able to fabricate one from hardwood or metal (or a combination of both) that will do the job.
Did I mention this is a job that requires patience yet? :)
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It was idiot Homey Depot: all they had was oak. Normally I'd get birch. It's about 40 mi. (round-trip) to a Rockler or similar.

That's what's nice about living in a free country: you are allowed to doubt any damned thing you please.

I dunno how to make a doweling jig. To po' me, a doweling jig is a tool thatcha buy from a store. If ya have the $.

No!
I did that this time, but freehand.

No!
Wanna loan me the $60+?

I gotta 13" press, but I dunno how to make more than a horse's ass doweling jig.

I got a certain amount. But I'm damned if I'm married to this hideous POS. Remember I toldya the top rail wouldn't come off the hinge stile? You said to proceed, so I did, and positioning the 2 married pieces (30+ lbs) to do any serious work (i.e. drilling) is ridiculously difficult. I think maybe you forgot about that "leetle deetail"?
I need to get it as good as practical and slam it back together, run it up the flagpole, see if anyone recognizes it's a door. :-)
Seriously, you wanna weigh in on the Q re the super-slow glue? I'm gonna need it!
Thx, P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
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On 7/21/2012 7:00 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:

Whatever... :(
I'm quite confident the door was flat when it left the factory. If you don't care, I'm certain I don't, at least any longer.
As for glues; I addressed it at some length earlier.
Bye...
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Given issues like the fact that the wood overall isn't in the best condition, I don't see the absolute need for the tight fit of the dowels. I agree it would certainly be desirable. And if it were not too difficult, I would do it. But since he's having such a hard time, I don't see the harm in having the dowels fit loosely so he can align it. With epoxy in there I would think it would be strong enough and structurally sound. I would just epoxy it and be done.
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On 7/20/2012 10:54 AM, Puddin' Man wrote:

a dowel jig can be a couple of c clamps on a 2x4 with some holes drilled in it in the appropriate places.

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dpb wrote:

Excuse me? Are you saying that a dowel glued into the rail is less strong? If so, I beg to differ.
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On 7/20/2012 1:04 PM, dadiOH wrote:

You can differ all you want but it doesn't change the fact (nor the orientation of the grain) :)
Of course it is (weaker in the cross direction, that is)...it doesn't have nearly the amount of long grain to bond against in solid wood. (As noted below, in quality plywood or composites there isn't much if any difference).
Believe it or not, they study this stuff... :)
Eckelman, C.A. 1969. Engineering concepts of single-pin dowel joint design. Forest Prod. J. 19(12):52-60.
--1971. Bending strength and moment-rotation characteristics of two-pin moment-resisting dowel joints. Forest Prod. J. 21(3):35-39.
--1979. Withdrawal strength of dowel joints: effect of shear strength. Forest Prod. J. 29(1):48-52.
Are two of which I've known for quite some time--I couldn't find them online in a quick search. They do this for the furniture manufacturers, primarily, w/ certainly applications to stuff like these doors, etc., etc, etc., ...
I suspect there's also supporting data in the US FPL's landmark tome the Handbook but it's humongeous and I didn't try to search just now...

This kind of research is where the data comes from that "joint strength increases with clamping pressure", too.... :)
Interestingly enough, and as one might expect, when the substrate is furniture-grade plywood or many of the other composites, then one doesn't find the directional bias. This is pretty easy to digest since there is really no preferential grain direction in those materials.
But, all that aside, they're "strong enough" when sound; the point here is that because of the (primarily) cross-grain construction they're the ones that do tend to fail first (as attested to by the observation that they're the ones he can get out).
Generally the failure mechanism is one in which the dowel typically either shrinks or at least becomes oval. The comparative effect is less when the dowel and the surrounding hole are in the same grain direction as the transverse movement of wood is almost all in the across-grain mode. When the dowel is perpendicular to the grain the two sides directly abutting end grain essentially see no wood movement.
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dpb wrote:

Let's look at this another way. Let's glue a couple of pieces of wood: one across the bottom of the stile and another along the bottom og a rail. Sort of exterrnal "dowels". Do you still say the one across the bottom of the stile - glued to end grain - is the stronger?
OK, it isn't quite like a dowel so make it a piece in a groove in each. Now the host wood can move on three sides...close enough IMO. Still stick to your guns? If so, I must respectively say, "Pooh pooh" to the studies and continue as I have for six decades.
--

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On 7/20/2012 6:37 PM, dadiOH wrote:

Dang if I don't realize I've been saying bassakwards -- rail and stile switched in me head somehow...sorry. :( (I _HATE_ it when I do that! :( )
I looked back and puudin says most stayed in the stile and came out of the rail; that's generally the reverse of what I discover...
What I wrote in followup is in agreement w/ your supposition; I just automagically correlated in that direction w/o registering the opposite I suppose. No explanation other than brain/fingers/keyboard f...
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