One doesn't need a specialty epoxy, any will do when thickend with fumed silica (Cab-o-Sil, Aero-Sil), micro balloons, wood dust or any of numerous other things. It bridges gaps wonderfully so why not use it? ___________
Or just give up and use lags :) _______________
As long as I am writing, let me mention (to OP) your new (apparently) framing square.
You *can* use it, as you are in one photo, by laying it flat across stuff and jiggling the legs flush with what you are trying to check but that is way harder - and subject to error if you don't jiggle "just right" - than just putting the inside edge of one leg against one edge of the subject and then moving the square so that the other leg touches the edge of the other subject piece.
Having seen how you were using the square I now understand why you couldn't check the door opening because of the hinge (knuckle). Of course, there are three OTHER corners you could have used where the hinge would not interfere but I'd skip them too...just stick the outside of one leg of the square against the broad face of the side - not the edge - in the opening and move the square until the other leg contacts the broad face of the top piece. No jiggling necessary.
The joint isn't "warped". It is offset because you didn't put the pieces together evenly. When they are, there won't be any - none, zero, nada - lateral pressure across the joint.
It will only be misaligned if there's enough play in the dowels to allow it. If pulled together tight the matching coping surfaces will bring it back in plane.
At this point, this is a cosmetic issue only and will be resolved when the basic joinery is repaired.
Sure you can... :)
Get a brad point or Forstner style not just a twist drill.
It is possible to get by w/ a 1/2" because once they're drilled out the bit will be self-aligning in the existing hole if careful. You have to be very cautious in keeping the alignment correct rather than letting them wander off the proper direction w/o a guide, however.
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Use the smallest size you have w/ a brad point to get centered and be able to check that you are centered. That way if you are just a tad off you have a chance to correct it before you've reamed so much of the hole out that when you recenter and drill out you're left w/ an oblong hole instead of round...
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It can be done w/ the single jig and some time/care. Once done once it will save on the time that otherwise will be required to get every single hole placement correct.
I snipped for brevity and lost the context of the comment about time & $$...it is time but unless you're being paid for doing something else w/ the time that's not much in the way of money...and, if you don't have a door the comparison is against either purchasing a new one for DIY installation or paying a carpenter/handyman to do the job for you.
What's the cost of a few dowels, a drill bit or two and some glue in comparison?
You didn't have a working door anyway or weren't going to for long even if it was able to be jammed into the opening so something's gotta' give to make progress here.
Apparently this is a stretch but it _is_ doable...it just takes a willingness to try and then to be attentive to detail in what are doing as doing it. Worst come to worst you do mess up a hole or two--you do go back and plug it and then drill it out again. Hopefully you don't need to do that more than once or twice at most. :)
I'll admit one case from years ago here...this was an early Federal house in Lynchburg w/ a handcarved door that was in _very_ bad shape on the bottom stile. The choice was to fabricated some new replacement parts or try to salvage as much of the original as possible. Fortunately, this on was not on the National Registry or in a local formal preservation district so we were not restricted by covenant or some other outside agent in what we could do other than try to retain the character as much as practical.
The homeowner's choice was that they liked the idea of as much original material as possible to be retained so since this door panel had very little integrity left structurally, I soaked in one of the epoxy restoration products similar to the following
and then bored a 1/4" hole completely through the door horizontally w/ a specially-made extension done by brazing a bit onto a hardened rod in three places, then counterbored and used a piece of 3/16" SS aircraft cable to tie the pieces together. After plugging the holes and finishing, it was difficult to tell(+)...I would _NOT_ recommend such extremes for this door. :)
(+) No, I _don't_ know how long it survived--we were in Lynchburg once about 15 yr after that restoration and the house had changed hands. Driving by it _looked_ like the same door still on it... :) That's been
You can differ all you want but it doesn't change the fact (nor the orientation of the grain) :)
Of course it is (weaker in the cross direction, that is)...it doesn't have nearly the amount of long grain to bond against in solid wood. (As noted below, in quality plywood or composites there isn't much if any difference).
Believe it or not, they study this stuff... :)
Eckelman, C.A. 1969. Engineering concepts of single-pin dowel joint design. Forest Prod. J. 19(12):52-60.
--1971. Bending strength and moment-rotation characteristics of two-pin moment-resisting dowel joints. Forest Prod. J. 21(3):35-39.
--1979. Withdrawal strength of dowel joints: effect of shear strength. Forest Prod. J. 29(1):48-52.
Are two of which I've known for quite some time--I couldn't find them online in a quick search. They do this for the furniture manufacturers, primarily, w/ certainly applications to stuff like these doors, etc., etc, etc., ...
I suspect there's also supporting data in the US FPL's landmark tome the Handbook but it's humongeous and I didn't try to search just now...
This kind of research is where the data comes from that "joint strength increases with clamping pressure", too.... :)
Interestingly enough, and as one might expect, when the substrate is furniture-grade plywood or many of the other composites, then one doesn't find the directional bias. This is pretty easy to digest since there is really no preferential grain direction in those materials.
But, all that aside, they're "strong enough" when sound; the point here is that because of the (primarily) cross-grain construction they're the ones that do tend to fail first (as attested to by the observation that they're the ones he can get out).
Generally the failure mechanism is one in which the dowel typically either shrinks or at least becomes oval. The comparative effect is less when the dowel and the surrounding hole are in the same grain direction as the transverse movement of wood is almost all in the across-grain mode. When the dowel is perpendicular to the grain the two sides directly abutting end grain essentially see no wood movement.
So I got a 5/8" red oak dowel rod, cut some pieces, forstner-reamed 2 stile holes out to 5/8, mounted the 2 oak dowels, cut off the other 2 and retested the fitting of (particularly) the hinge stile and kickplate rail. Hoping it would straighten out the "warp". It did not. The 2 oak dowels were good and tight, too.
Near as I can tell, the dowel holes in the stile in that location were angled, resulting in the "warp". I reamed the 2 out as carefully as possible, but it looks like I just duplicated the angle 'cause the result is the same.
I know of no way to drill the holes in perfect alignment with the rail. The damned thang will NOT fit on my drill press.
If you've got a remedy to this problem, I'll be listening. Please to render it in -detail- (don't just say "drill straight!").
Thx, P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
Let's look at this another way. Let's glue a couple of pieces of wood: one across the bottom of the stile and another along the bottom og a rail. Sort of exterrnal "dowels". Do you still say the one across the bottom of the stile - glued to end grain - is the stronger?
OK, it isn't quite like a dowel so make it a piece in a groove in each. Now the host wood can move on three sides...close enough IMO. Still stick to your guns? If so, I must respectively say, "Pooh pooh" to the studies and continue as I have for six decades.
Dang if I don't realize I've been saying bassakwards -- rail and stile switched in me head somehow...sorry. :( (I _HATE_ it when I do that! :( )
I looked back and puudin says most stayed in the stile and came out of the rail; that's generally the reverse of what I discover...
What I wrote in followup is in agreement w/ your supposition; I just automagically correlated in that direction w/o registering the opposite I suppose. No explanation other than brain/fingers/keyboard f...
It would help lessen the confusion if you stopped calling it a warp. The wood is not actually warped, is it? Or is it? It appears from the photos that what you have is actually wood that is straight, but the problem is when the joint is brought together with the dowels, the pieces do not align straight because the dowels won't allow it.
If that is the case, I'd bore out the dowel holes so that there is enough play so that it will align straight. Then I'd use epoxy or weatherproof glue to put it together. The new dowels and the epoxy will hold it all together. Assuming of course that you have gotten down to wood that is sound and not rotten.
I'd rather have the joint "tight but off a little" than "aligned but subject to break loose".
However, I will badly need an adhesive with the 'longest possible' setup time, because this will be a Royal Bitch of a glueup. Is that epoxy, or is it one of the waterproof exterior glues?
Thx, P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
Not really...tap, tap, tap...clamp, clamp, clamp...tap, tap, tap. Just keep it level/flat/straight as you do so. _____________
IMO, you want epoxy. With a thickener. I've never timed it but epoxy sets up very slowly, I'd think you'd have a minimum of 30 minutes and even then it doesn't set hard, just starts to get syrupy. It won't get hard for a day; REALLY hard for several days.
It does set faster with heat and setting generates heat - more mass = more heat - so don't put it in a narrow deep container if you want maximum time.
Red oak is _NOT_ a good choice for this purpose--it rots like crazy w/ any moisture at all. White oak would be ok, one of the nonporous hardwoods (birch, etc.) or even pine would be far better choice.
I seriously doubt if the door originally was put together w/ out-of alignment holes...if it were, then it would have been flat when new and that's just not believable it wasn't...
That's _precisely_ why I kept telling you that one tool you definitely needed was/is a doweling jig; it is not possible to drill into punky stuff accurately freehand and damn near it even if the wood is good. The difference in hardness between a dowel end grain trying to drill it out will cause the bit to skate and if the dowel is gone but the wood isn't really solid there just isn't enough resistance you can't feel it if you're not perfectly aligned.
I'd guess your best bet now would be to glue dowels into and fill the tight holes you have made and start again w/ a doweling jig. Again as I've pointed out numerous times, use a smaller bit initially than the final size to ensure you're accurately centered.
The jig will guide the bit allowing the holes to be parallel to the faces; perpendicular to the edges.
If you do the infill, you can go back to a half for a final which the jig you already have may be able to accomodate. If not, I posted a link to one that does have 5/8" capability.
As another said (as well as I suggested it was likely worth the effort to make one for the spacing as well as for the alignment :) ) if you have a drill press you should be able to fabricate one from hardwood or metal (or a combination of both) that will do the job.
Did I mention this is a job that requires patience yet? :)
Titebond III is quoted at 10 min open time at 70F/50%RH. That ought to be plenty of time if you've done the dry fitting and have things set up and at hand when you start.
There are epoxies of longer and shorter open times but you'll have to be sure you've got enough mixed for the app as likely you'll begin to push even it if you have to stop/measure/mix another batch in the middle of the go.
If I were worried I'd assemble one side dry and only glue the other one in a single pass.
Again, you _MUST_ have done the dry assembly at least a couple of times and be satisfied you have the clamps in the right spots and everything at hand before starting and that you're satisfied of the result before you glue one pin.
I also will generally go ahead and pre-glue the pins in the rails as that's the most time consuming of application then you've only got the vertical rail to deal with for the assembly.
I can't emphasize enough that you will _not_ take that apparent misalignment out if the dowels are either loose or out of kilter w/ glue--if it doesn't go together right dry, it'll not be right in the end so cure those problems first.
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