Sagging Door (was "How difficult to "build" a Door") III

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Last time I checked one side of the hinge goes on the new door, at the edge. The other side of the hinge goes on the door jamb, or in your case the door rough opening because you have no jamb. Exactly like they are on there now. I can take any door in my house out and replace it with a door that is 1/2" thicker. Everyone else here has told you that it's not a problem either. You have to move the stop molding, but I do not see why hinges are an issue.
It would also be helpful if you could explain why EXACTLY you think it won't work. First we just got "I can't find a door that's suitable." Then upon repeated questioning in an attempt to help you, we get "All the new doors are thicker". Now it's on to "For crissake, it depends on hinge placement."
Is it that hard to explain what exactly you think the fitment issue is that prevents you from using a door that is thicker?
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Puddin' Man wrote:

H I N G E S A R E M O V E A B L E.
--

dadiOH
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wrote:

It's 80". The ? was meant to represent the difference between the pre-hung height and it's door height. Is this diff. standard? What is it? 2" like the door diff.?
P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
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t> wrote:

If your RO is 32" x 80", I feel that you have at least 4 choices, all of which I believe have been suggested elsewhere in this 3-threaded monster.
1 - Buy a shorter door. As I said earlier, Therma Tru, amongst others, makes doors that are 30" x 78". Since the standard for a RO is 2 inches larger than the door and jamb (although doors can be squeezeed into a smaller RO) a 32" x 80" RO is perfect for 30" x 78" pre-hung door.
2 - Buy a 30" x 80" door and modify the header. Either cut out 2 inches from the existing header, re-enforcing across the top if necessary, or taking it out and putting in a new one. You will probably have to modify the exterior of the garage somewhat also.
3 - Buy an 30" x 80" pre-hung door and trim it down. I've done it with wooden doors and with foam filled steel doors. 20-something years ago I cut 2" off the top of a foam filled steel door for my shop entrance. I saturated the exposed foam with polyurethane and never looked back. The door opens in, so the foam is never exposed to the weather anyway. The cut is on the top, so it never gets banged and it's never dented.
4 - Buy a 32" x 80" door slab and hang it just like your exisiting door, beveling whatever needs to be beveled to get it to close. If you need to extend the framing on the sides to account for the hinges and latch, do so.
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Puddin' Man wrote:

Well, you made it.

DAGS for "Lowes" or "Home Depot"
dadiOH ____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
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Since he has no jamb, just the 2 x 4 framing, the RO can't be squared with shims like a pre-hung could be, making it a little tougher to fix.
That's one of the reasons many of us have suggested a pre-hung if he determines that the RO isn't square and that the door has been modified to fit.
I'm not saying he shouldn't fix the door correctly, but if it was me, I'd want to know the condition of my RO beforehand. It would nag me throughout the project wondering if there was some other variable that I should be aware of.
Measure, drill, dowel, measure..."I wonder if the RO is square"...Glue, clamp, measure, adjust..."I wonder if the RO is square"...Glue, clamp, measure, adjust..."I wonder if the RO is square"...carry it up the stairs, go have lunch..."I wonder if the RO is square".
Of course, maybe that's just me.
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On 7/18/2012 2:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: ...

Well, it came _out_of_ that very same opening and it wasn't apart when it was hung (one presumes)...
...

That's just you... :)
But how would you plan on compensating on the floor, anyway, realistically?
If the opening was/is much out of square when it was hung, it'll have already been trimmed to fit (or never fit anyway). If he puts it back together as it was originally he'll have the same door as it was then in the same opening barring whatever settling has happened. That if any is nothing he should take care of in putting the door together though; that's a totally different issue.
As I've told OP numerous times, the point is to get the rails back to meeting the stiles in their original locations and full pulled together. If (as I've already noted multiple times) the door has been trimmed to fit a non-square opening he'll find that out when he measures the to sides' respective lengths as well as the width at the top and bottom--if it's been trimmed then it won't be really square even though the joints fit correctly--that'll be the measurement he wants to fit the hole though or at least very close.
But even if it isn't a square opening, what's so tough about trimming a wooden door that you would go to extremes to mis-assemble one to compensate??????????????
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On 7/18/2012 2:19 PM, dpb wrote: ....

...
But to make it perfectly clear--the objective is _NOT_ to force the door to measure the same across the two diagonals _UNLESS_AND_ONLY_UNLESS_ the measurements of the door show it has _NOT_ been trimmed significantly to compensate for an out-of-square opening.
If the lengths and widths are uniform then the door has not been significantly altered and that's the indication when it has been brought back to square, yes. If those measurements show it has been trimmed significantly, then the point (and really the point anyway) is _still_ to get the rails and stiles back to their original positions and full in contact w/ the coping having removed all the accumulated dirt, paint, etc., that has built up over the years. The diagonal measurements then will not necessarily be the same but it won't matter. The point is the door will be back to very close to the dimensions it was before it failed badly enough to be a problem.
In actuality looking at the pictures OP posted when it was down and partially apart, the top rail, lock rail and quite possibly the next one down show little evidence of separation--the "sagging" is almost all solely in the bottom kick stile joint(s) which has/have come loose and the subsequent wear on the dowels and dowel holes in it that cause it to droop. When that panel is back in it's proper place or near to it, I'd lay pretty good odds it'll fit the opening just fine w/ perhaps just a little tweaking...
--
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Maybe we don't know how many times the door has been trimmed to compensate for an ever changing RO shape.
Somewhere in this ridiculously long 3-threaded monster I believe that he said the door was trimmed to account for the sag which only worked for a short time. I don't recall but maybe it was trimmed again.
Maybe the scraping on the floor is partially due to the door sagging and partially due to RO settlement. He could go through the trouble of squaring up the door only to find that the RO is so out that he ends up with gaps around the door.
Who knows?
It just seems so logical to me to know what I'm starting with and to have accounted for all variables, within reason. In the time that you and I have gone back and forth just this afternoon, either of us could have checked his door for square and at least know how that factors into it, if at all.
Heck, I may go home and check a few doors just to get it out of my system! ;-)
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On 7/18/2012 2:40 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: ...

But, in _reassembling_ the door, what can you do about it anyway? The answer is, "effectively nothing". The pieces fit where they belong, period. Done. Finis.
They don't/won't fit where they don't belong and you can't really alter that w/o completely making new ones or grossly altering the existing.
See other note amplifying re: the outer rails/bottom stile perhaps having already been trimmed...but to take away the suspense the short story is "it doesn't matter" (yet). :)
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I agree 99.9% that nothing can be done when reassembling the door. But what about that 1 in 1000 chance that something could pop up while checking the door for square that might make you do something different - or perhaps not repair the door at all?
That's all I'm saying...and it's something I would do before tackling the repair on the off chance that the exercise itself might turn up something that could impact how I proceed. Since it can't possibly hurt to know that information, but it could possibly help, why not check it?
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On 7/18/2012 3:11 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

...
Well, I look at it this way (and I've done this numerous times) -- the door was in the opening and was, in fact, still functioning albeit not perfectly when I decided to repair it.
Inspecting the door, I see it is fundamentally still in sound shape so, ergo, it's going to be repaired.
As there's nothing effective I can do re: the opening until I'm ready to rehang it, it doesn't matter so I go ahead and repair the door as well as I can possibly do and then go hang it.
Whatever needs to be done at that point is/was going to have to be done anyway and the decision about repairing vs replacing was made on the condition of the door; again if the opening is so bad it needs rework that is it's problem, not the door's.
Segregation of duties... :)
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Could be worse.

I had figgered on breaking all joints. It now doesn't look practical.

Any tips you can relate about "work (gently so as to not screw up ..." would be much appreciated. I tap-tap with the mallet, and I grab each piece in one hand and work back and forward, and that's the end of my "technique".
I have yet to fully disengage a single piece. See photo.
What tools did you use to clean out the joint surfaces? Aside from a paint scraper (obviously needed)?

Many *are* hogged out, mostly on the rail (so far).

I've not used a story stick. When I do a search, all I'm getting is info on commercial products. If you can point me to a site where they build their own, it'd help.

Well, I'm working on it. Haven't ripped anything yet. But it's frustrating. The wood exhibits unpredictable behavior, not something I'm used to.

I can work out one side on maybe 1/3 of the dowels (so far). They measure about .599 to .623. Some fragment when I remove (see photo). Tend to come loose on the rail (not stile) side. They are 4.5 +" long.
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorStileOff07-2012004.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorStileOff07-2012005.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorDowels07-2012006.jpg
The only doweling jig I have won't handle this size.

That'll hopefully come later.
RO = Rough Opening? I measure it as H = 80, W = 32.5". Either diagonal measures about 86".
The hinge stile is 80 1/8", the other (lock) stile is 79 7/8".
Glad you are "staying aboard". I'll need all the help I can get before this is over.
Thx, P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
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On 7/18/2012 2:33 PM, Puddin' Man wrote: ...

Often isn't (or needed)

Based on the first picture you're almost home...you've got the bottom stile almost completely separate on the hinge side (lock side is covered up) and you've gotten the joint broken and begun to move at the lock side at the top. The intermediates have all moved quite nicely.
One thing that would help a lot would be if you had anything you could use as a more solid work surface. If it were me, I would prefer at this point to have the hinge side rail at the top clamped solidly to a fixed surface so I could work specifically on the top rail lock side joint more w/o everything else wanting (or, more precisely, being able to) come along for the ride.
The working rocking is good, tapping is good, patience is better... :)
I make up a block of the matching cope and use it; lacking a shaper in your case I'd make a poorman's substitute caul by gluing a piece of ply (or better yet hardwood if you can machine something the right thickness) that just snugly fits into the groove and is long enough to keep the rest of the block from dinging up the cope. Make it 8" or so long and 5=6" wide so you can hang onto it while hitting. Now you can do more than just tap w/o danger of beating up the profile. Again alternate between wiggling, driving, cussing in that order. :)
You're a long way from needing to do so yet by the looks of it, but if one can get enough separation to finally get a hacksaw blade between the end of the stile and the rail you can just go ahead and saw the dowels off and then go after them...
Again, those joints that don't give are still solid enough they're going to be ok w/o coming apart.

Really that's probably about the worst tool for this job--too big and clumsy. I use several old chisels of various sizes (moderately sharp but not dovetail joint cleanup sharp) pocket knife, dental tools/picks, small rifflers, scrapers, whatever seems to fit the particular situation. BTW, the chisels are mostly used in scraping, not so much as trying to pare. Surprisingly, if you have an air compressor, high pressure air w/ a very small nozzle tip is extremely effective including lifting pain if there's the least gap under edge. Wear good eye and ear protection for sure!!!!
...

Nothing fancy needed at all...just a couple pieces of 1x, preferably reasonably straight and flat and 1-1/2 - 2" wide will work just fine. Cut an arrow pointy end on one end of each. To use, you just put the ends in the corners and mark where the end of one is on the other. Make a note as to what that mark measured; and you can reproduce that length simply by lining the marks up again. You can get as sophisticated as you want w/ making them to slide together w/ locking knobs, etc., etc., etc., but all that's really need is the two pieces and optionally a small c-clamp. Nothing fancy at all...
...

Old material tends to do that. Again when you're cleaning, try to scrape more than pare to avoid digging...
I spent a significant period of time restoring ante- and reasonably closely after post-bellum homes in Lynchburg, VA, years and years ago in another life. I'm well acquainted w/ the frustrations (but the joy of bringing back a hand-shaped panel door w/ 16" wide single-board panels to it's original glory is well worth it...your door isn't a classic but when it's done you'll get the same satisfaction! :)
...

...
There's a tool you are going to need--unless you can accurately fabricate one other than simply reaming out the existing holes it's impossible to keep stuff lined up well enough by hand.
If a dowel is solid and it doesn't want to come at all, I'll generally leave it on that end on the assumption if it ain't broke now it's not likely going to any time "real soon now".
...

...
Truthfully, it looks like you're making good progress; just keep after it. I don't think I've mentioned that it does take patience, have I? :)
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On 7/18/2012 3:32 PM, dpb wrote:

...
...
...
Oh another trick that often helps (but be careful in application)...
Make up a hardwood or if can find a piece of plastic or other hard material of right thickness and use a fairly short piece of it in the flat section of the profile where the end of stile meets rail in the initial gap. The serves as a fulcrum when doing the rocking to apply a more direct inline force. As noted be cautious in how much force you apply here; you can crush the profile by getting carried away...
If you can manage to hold one in on both the top and bottom sides of the door all the better. Masking tape or similar ways can help here--be creative there is "no one way" -- any way that works is the right way.
--
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On 7/18/2012 3:32 PM, dpb wrote:

...
I used "long" too many times in the above---the idea is to put a piece of the same thickness as the panel groove on a block to use as a caul against which you can pound away with vigor w/o marring the profile of the coping.
That can either be milled into a solid block or glue onto a block. It needs to be _wide_ enough to stand proud of the profile when bottomed in the groove; the whole block then needs to be long enough to spread the blow out a little and big enough overall to hang onto and hit solidly in place...
At the upper in is good where you need it as you've got access through the removed lites.
Oh, another variation of the fulcrum in the crack--make up a longer version of the above and place it across the door from one side to the other and use it the same way as you bring the rails together at one end it will separate them at the other. This is easiest if you can get the vertical window muntin out by any chance w/o breaking it. (You will be keeping track of which pieces-parts goes where won't you? I knew you were :) ).
--

> You're a long way from needing to do so yet by the looks of it, but if
> one can get enough separation to finally get a hacksaw blade between the
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Well, I tap-tapped and wiggle-wiggled and actually got a tiny, tiny bit of work done. The hinge stile/top rail came apart per pics:
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorStileRailOff07-2012003.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorStileRailOff07-2012002.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorStileRailOff07-2012001.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorStileRailOff07-2012004.jpg I cleaned up the cope and dowel/holes a little and tried to dry-fit it back. It wouldn't fit at all tight.
Right now I am more worried about the warp of the hinge stile than anything else. Were any of your stiles or rails twisted or otherwise warped? If so, how did you handle it?
If the warp is as pronounced as I fear, I could doing this thru X-mas. :-(
Thx, P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
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On 7/18/2012 10:29 PM, Puddin' Man wrote:

...
Well, if it's the section of the stile you show the edge of sitting on the floor, of course it won't...there's all kinds of paint/dirt/crud still there...clean up _all_ the edges and have surfaces to the point you think you're ready to be reassembled before there's much of any point and then you'll find the hangups...if there's any joint friction at all, it'll take some clamp pressure or at least a mallet to bring it together completely but the least little spot of paint or dirt is all it takes--the mating surfaces have to be fully clean.

...
I couldn't/didn't see anything in the pictures that looked out of kilter...I'd have to see some indication of what the problem is to have any way to judge.
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Apologies for the confusion: those pics were taken -before- I started cleaning up the joint surfaces.
But you can see the intricacy of the cope. I did what I could, but mostly the wood is just very much weathered. What would you use to clean such a cope?

Here's 2 pics of the hinge stile put back together after survey cleanup, replacing dowels, and (pipe) clamping. See where the light shines under the rule? That illustrates the warp.
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorHingeStilewithRule07-2012001.jpg
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorHingeStileshowinggap07-2012002.jpg
The next pic illustrates that the door is much nearer square.
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorHingeStilenearlysquare07-2012003.jpg
but the next pic (again) illustrates the warp or drop-off across the bottom of the hinge stile.
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorHingeStileshowinggap07-2012004.jpg
I think it's mostly the dowels causing the warp, b/c the stile (thankfully) looks mostly flat when placed on the bsmt floor. But I dunno what to do about it.
Your candid opinion, kind sir?
Thx, P
"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."
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...
http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p576/Puddin_Man/GarageDoorHingeStileshowinggap07-2012004.jpg
I think the technical verdict is that the wood has turned to crap.
Time to toss the door and buy a new one.
--
Dan Espen

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