Rules on Asbestos

Page 1 of 2  
The tile flooring in my basement is 40 years old and has asbestos in it. According to State publication, vinyl tile is considered non-friable asbestos and, if I follow some common sense procedures, it can be a DIY project.
One problem is I'm looking at 3 rooms, 2 hallways, and a 720 sq.ft back of the basement area with oil tank, oil furnace, washer, dryer, large sink, and massive storage. It's possible to do the rooms and hallways individually, but not 720 sq.ft. The only option I see is to cover the existing tiles - but with what?
Any and all constructive suggestions will be appreciated.
Dick
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Oct 20, 8:39 pm, snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (Dick Adams) wrote:

Go to your local flooring store and look at all the options. You don't say why you want to get a new floor. You don't say if you have any potential water problems, how much ceiling clearance there is, what sort of walls/wall treatments there are. How long are you planning on staying in the house? If you are looking for cheap and fast, a layer of epoxy garage floor type paint might do. You could put a new layer of vinyl tile down if the present floor is smooth. What activities are there in the basement. Teenagers might call for something different than if you have amodel railroad setup, etc.
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I'm planning on being out of here in 3 to 7 years and I would rather spend labor while I'm still able to spend it.
I'll have to go back and look, but I recall reading that you were not suppose to paint over it or apply a floor leveling compound to it.
Thanks
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Oct 20, 9:20 pm, snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (Dick Adams) wrote:

If the current floor is adhering to the concrete under it, and moisture is not a problem, there should not be a problem. I have tiles on my basement floor, and have almost all of it covered with an industrial grade of short-nubbed carpeting, Only my workshop area is uncovered tile. I would epoxy paint it if I had to do something.
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Dick:
This is not nearly as difficult a job as you're probably thinking it is.
Please meet the Crain Model 700 electric floor stripping machine:
[image:
http://prefloortools.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/600x600/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/7/0/700.jpg ]
It's probably the most popular floor stripping machine in the world.
Phone around to any of the carpet retailers in your area and ask to speak to the installations manager. Ask the installations manager who sells flooring installation supplies in your area, and whether or not they rent floor stripping machines. If they do, they'll probably rent the Crain 700. And, yes, they will rent to you, and if they don't Home Depot will probably have these available for rent too.
Quite honestly, if these are either 12 inch square vinyl asbestos tiles or 9 inch square asphalt tiles, stripping those tiles off the whole area you're talking about shouldn't take more than 3 or 4 hours using a rented flooring stripper.
Once you get the tile off the floor, the best product I know of for removing the black glue holding it down is a product called "Oil Flo" or "Oil Flo 141" both made by Titan Labs of Sunnyvale, California.
[image:
http://www.tools4flooring.com/media/catalog/product/cache/4/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/o/i/oil-flo-141_2.jpg ]
I've used Oil Flo to remove asphaltic adhesive, and it does a good job, but I've never used Oil Flo 141, which I understand is formulated specifically for removing black asphaltic vinyl tile adhesive (commonly called "cut back" adhesive). You can do almost as good a job by:
1. dissolving the old adhesive in mineral spirits, 2. mixing a detergent like Mr. Clean or Simple Green into the dissolved adhesive,
3. adding water to emulsify the mineral spirits, 4. and then vaccuuming up the liquid mess with a wet/dry vaccuum cleaner.
To my knowledge, both Oil Flo and Oil Flo 141 are simply a detergent (like Mr. Clean or Simple Green) mixed with a hydrocarbon solvent (like mineral spirits).
Finally, about the asbestos issue, and some people might not believe this, but did you know that the airborne asbestos levels in the parks around San Fransisco were measured to be 50 times greater than the OSHA would allow in a workplace without the employer providing protective respiratory equipment to the employees?
It's true. Asbestos is one of the most common rocks in the Earth's crust, and there are places where outcroppings of asbestos bearing rock come to the surface, making regular exposure to airborne asbestos fibers inevitable. Any construction project that disturbs that asbestos bearing rock puts asbestos fibers into the air.
Essentially all of the bedrock in California is asbestos bearing. Much of it is in the form of a rock called "Serpentine". Serpentine rock was used to make the gravel roads in the state parks around San Fransisco, and when cars drove over those gravel roads, the car tires would grind the Serpentine stones against each other creating clowds of airborne asbestos fibers. But, this was before Mesothelioma started showing up in people who worked in the asbestos industry, so people at the time thought nothing of it. California has since passed laws that require that the gravel used to make gravel roads in that state have a Serpentine content of less than 0.05 percent (IIRC).
You should also know that until recently (I believe it was 2000 or so), the USA was importing brakes shoes and disk brake pads made from asbestos from China. Apparantly, a baby squabble erupted between different branches of the government as to who had jurisdiction over imported auto parts. No one wanted it. So, until about the year 2000 the US was importing asbestos brake shoes and brake pads from China while banning the use of asbestos in the same products manufactured in the USA. Go figure.
Did you know that the bedrock around the Great Lakes is all asbestos bearing rock? Rain erodes that rock and washes asbestos into the rivers and streams that feed the Great Lakes. Duluth, Minnesota gets it's drinking water from Lake Superior, and the citizens of Duluth swallow about 3000 asbestos fibers with every glass of tap water they drink.
All of this information was on the OSHA's web site before they took it off. And, if you don't believe me, read the "Asbestos News" section of the Mesothelioma Center's website here:
'Mesothelioma News Center | Latest in Asbestos & Mesothelioma News' (http://www.asbestos.com/news /)
The Mesothelioma Center appears to me to be a web site put up by some ambulance chasing lawyers who want to represent you if you've contracted mesothelioma. The problem is that asbestos-related lung cancers can take up to 50 years to show up after you're first exposed to asbestos, so it's impossible to tell where and when a person actually contracted the disease. And, without being able to prove that, all you have is a hefty lawyer's bill, and the disease.
If you ask me, the reason why people in San Fransisco are living to ripe old ages and we aren't seeing auto mechanics that specialize in brake and clutch replacement all coming down with mesothelioma is because we've been living with asbestos in the environment for the 3 million years we've been evolving from apes, and during the millions of years before that during which the apes evolved from crawling fish, and so we've acquired some resistance to it. But, we're all different and so some of us are more resistant to it than others. And, of course, we're all exposed to different amounts of asbestos depending on where we live and where we work.
But, the bottom line here is that asbestos is abundant in the Earth's crust and erosion happens, and that means we're all exposed to asbestos to some degree every time we go outdoors.
Hope this helps.
--
nestork


Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It is my understanding that there are two types of asbestos. One type, which is fairly rare and of noticeable texture, causes mesothelioma and sometimes this type was used in insulation products. The other type, which is much more comon and was used everywhere - insulation, tiles, etc etc does not cause mesothelioma. Further, that this differentiation was forgotten during the asbestos scare. Then after being remembered; the asbestos bruhaha quietly went away with 'weak' explanations like the floor tile safely contains the asbestos so you can remove it as a DIY project. But still not telling the complete truth that the asbestos is actually the second type, not to worry, just be prudent in breathing the dust.
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 10/21/2012 10:26 AM, Robert Macy wrote:

There was a story I read about a young woman scientist working for The EPA who pointed out to her bosses there that only one type of asbestos was a danger. She was ordered to keep her mouth shut because the people would literally hunt them down and do unspeakable things to them because of the billions of dollars the agency forced people to spend in unnecessary cleanup work. Real or not? I don't know but it sounded just like all the other junk science government uses to financially destroy the citizenry. O_o
TDD
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
>

No, I hadn't heard that. I know that there are different kinds of mesothelioma but I never read anything about there being different kinds of asbestos. However, it would seem reasonable that there are different kinds of asbestos.

> because

I hadn't heard that either.
My point is that asbestos is another Burmuda Triangle. It's abundant in the Earth's crust, and in many places around the globe, asbestos bearing rock extends right to the surface of the Earth. People living in those areas cannot avoid exposure to asbestos.
But, we simply don't see people living in those areas contracting lung cancer at any higher rates than normal. So, the only reasonable conclusion that can be made is that we don't really understand the effects of asbestos exposure, and why some people are more sensitive to it than others.
But, it's not a new story. We don't understand why some people are so sensitive to peanuts that they can die from eating peanut butter. We don't understand why some people can smoke cigarettes their whole life and get run over by a bus when they're 98 years old, and others can smoke half a pack a week and get lung cancer when they're 40. I think we just need to recognized that when it comes to asbestos, what we know is pitifully small compared to what we have yet to learn about it.
Put asbestos in the same bag as the Burmuda Triangle, UFO's and the Salem witches.
--
nestork


Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
well heres a little detail that could come back to bite the property owner bad:(
So they do a DIY asbestos tile removal, when the home is up for sale the law requires they disclose this and what they did,,,,,
now say you dont disclose the asbestos tile removal and anyone knows you did it, and tells the new owner. the new owner can bring a lawsuit and take the $$$ out of your account even years later...
they would demand a pro clean up, and environmental tests, imagine if you happen to live in a asbestos prone area....... they could demand the home must be cleaner than the outside:(
A close by neighbor failed to disclose their bad sewer line, the new owner had a flooded basement, found out about the cover up, and won 15 grand in sewer line replacement plus court costs....
disclosing is the best way to go
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Maybe.
In the case of the sewer line, it was an on going problem that caused lots of damage. Pretty plain and simple to figure out.
In the case of asbestos removal, you'd have to prove it was done and when. Perhaps it was removed before the regulations. Just knowing it was there and no problems occur, I doubt you'd get very far. If you buy any house built before 1978, you just never know. Buy a house built in the 40's or 50's and you can be 90% sure it had asbestos tile if there is basement tiles.
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

lets assume the seller fails to disclose it, the new buyer moves in and a neigbor reports they had tile and removed it themselves.
the new owner has testing done for asbestos, it comes back positive and the home has to get asbestos professional cleaned.
the old owner is on the fancial hook for every expense involved including temporary housing for the family while home and all their possesions get professional cleaned, legal fees, etc etc.. because they failed to disclose the issue.
its better to disclose, because that way the old owner isnt liable for clean up at a future date, although it may cost them a sale
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

If I was buying I'd rather have it already removed than have to remove it myself. Worst case scenario you end up paying to have testing done in order to sell - chances of any problem turning up are very very slim to none.
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 14:37:31 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

If I was buying, I'd just leave it in place. It is not bothering anyone unless it is an ugly color.
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I just don't like tiled basement floors.
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The buyer normally pays for such testing.

If it is, cover it.
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 10/22/2012 12:27 PM, bob haller wrote: ...

Again, you manage to make the most innocuous event into a major calamity, Haller, first by presuming a bunch of events that are highly unlikely to occur (excepting for a neighbor like---well, maybe I ought not complete that explicitly :) ) and then blowing up a negligible or perhaps very minor hazard at worst to begin into a problem of the first magnitude.
Disclosure of known defects and conditions is a requirement, yes. Covering up a major defect that has clearly been a problem to the current owner is stupid and deservedly should come back and bite them, also yes. Spreading FUD as a high risk event on the basis of something as superficial as vinyl-asbestos tile is simply ludicrous and failing completely to have any concept whatsoever of what asbestos exposures actually have any risk associated with them. See the table in the link posted earlier.
--
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

today anyone can sue over anything, and the costs can be a killer even if the buyer looses.
my advice is to disclose it, the worst that can occur is a lost sale, or perhaps having to get a asbestos check.
many people think asbestos is instant death, their perception is heir realty....
and at least in PA the disclosure statement talked of any past problem and what was dione to fix it
again my point no matter what anyone believes about asbetsos its better to disclose it!!!
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 10/22/2012 11:08 PM, bob haller wrote: ...

If you would have stopped there, ok...but, also, again, what the _form_ asbestos is in makes all the difference.
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You only disclose what you know. This is a good reason one NEVER TESTS for asbestos, or any of the other loony leftist sky-is-falling nonsense. One you know of an issue, you must disclose it. Bottom line, just remove the tiles, if they're ugly. Done.
Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Remove the old cut back adhesive that held those old tiles down, too. It probably also has asbestos in it.
(But, it poses little danger as long as the floor is wet with the cleaning chemicals and/or water, there's not gonna be much airborne asbestos released.)
--
nestork


Add pictures here
✖
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.