- Nehmo -
Two trolls could have a contest: The first to get plonked wins. Or the
one to attract the most foul-word names could win too. And legitimate
newsgroup posters can compete to give the best answers to questions. But
outside of something like these examples, it's simplistic to reduce
complicated interactions, like usenet discussions, to wins and losses.
The laws you are referring to are usually humorous collections of
apparent contradictions. Example: A spelling flame will have its own
spelling error. More of them here:
The Hitler one, which comes is various forms, can be summarized by
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.
I dont see this one as true.
Dishonest roofers will do this at times. They get to charge more and
carry less weight.
You can have an old beat up shingle roof and it still won't leak when
the paper underneath is functional. The heavier paper is less apt to
get damaged while installing the roof and will make the roof more
serviceable. If you put an extra layer of shingles on later, which I
never would suggest, it helps there too.
I would not simply accept a refund of the tiny price difference on the
paper. The installation is what you paid for. I would pursue it if at
all possible for you to do so. I would spend money based on principle
here. That's just me.
My brother had his roof done by what was supposed to be a reputable
construction company. However, the crew leader was dishonest. They
thought they could take advantage of the situation as this brother
lacked the knowledge and physical capability of inspecting the work.
They ended up doing two complete tear offs before the work met the
contract and I signed off on it. Fortunately, the owner of the company
was reputable and did much work for the big insurance company. That
provided leverage you probably don't have in your case.
Roofing contractors seem to specalize in being rip off artists. The
crook who did my mother's roof was paid to put on 30 year shingles - he
used 20 and was forced to pay back a significant amount. Always always
always watch these people with a hawk eye - yes there are honest
contractors but there are armies of crooks out there. If they can save
time of money by taking short cuts - they will do that.
When the housing boom slows down - hope the crooks get real skinny.
The housing boom will never slow down unless we all stop making babies.
As for evaluating contractors, there is a growing website called
http://www.angieslist.com/ which has customer reviews of contractors. It is
not in my city yet but I definately would use such a resource as well as
checking the licence for complaints before hiring a contractor.
Checking up dosen't always help when you are going for a bargain price by
hiring samller unproven contractors. in that case, you have to know what
you are buying and how to tell if you actually got it.
"Stop making babies" becomes problamatic. Welfare state issues aside (ie,
fewer people being taxed to support more people), there are the issues of
being able to sustain a society. Negative growth rates screw up economies
(just look at most of Europe - if it weren't for the imigration, they'd be
in more trouble than they're in now). Also, look at China...they've had a
"one child" policy for how long?
i had a guy do that to me and i told him i wouldnt pay because
he broke the contract.i said only way id pay is if he put on what was in
the contract.. he hassled me for a while then went away. lucas
the roof may have been done with 2 layers of 15 , arguably equal or better
than 1 layer of 30
All you have to do is ask.
Also all felt may have been 30, the wrapper may not be directly from your
home , Ask
They may have run out of 30 and finished 1 section with a piece of 15, you
Some shingle mfgs insist on shingles being installed over 15 lb felt as
stated on the wrapper instructions
I'dbe more concerned that the shingles were nailed to code and flashing
installed and cemented properly
Most likely they used two layers of 15# felt. (actually it's required in
Ohio because for ice protection at the eaves.) The felt is double layered
and cemented together up to a point 24in. in from the exterior walls. If
the roof slope is 2:12 up to 4:12 (low-slope) a double layer is still
required for the rest of the roof (otherwise 15# will be code).
About the only way you can tell is to look under the shingles at the edge of
the roof. You may be ably to see if it's one or two layers. (Look about
"> My mother had her house re-foofed and as I was cleaning up the yard I
I'm licensed in seven (7) cities in NorthEast Ohio, and never heard of two
layers of felt.
Ice protection at eaves, two feet into the interior space, is a requirement.
Two layers of felt would not be allowable to substitute for ASTM D 1970.
Two layers of felt does not meet standard ASTM D 1970.
Always use required materials, otherwise you will be red tagged. In this
case, it would be an ice/water guard.
I was also state licensed in Ohio as an Inspector up to a couple of years
ago (couldn't afford the time to attend the mandatory seminars, being
out-of-state an all. Travel time killed me when I did attend.) Anyway, I
believe that Ohio is now using the IRC as the basis for its code. If you
have a copy (I don't have the current Ohio Building Code handy) it's in
section R905.2.7 of the 2003 IRC. (My *guess* is the Ohio code reads the
same in this area, but as I stated, I no longer maintain the Ohio code.)
R905.2.7 "For roof slopes from two units vertical in 12 units horizontal
(17-percent slope), up to four units vertical in 12 units horizontal
(33-percent slope), underlayment shall be two layers applied in the
following manner....." (followed by a long description of how to start the
felt, how much to lap, how to fasten, etc.)
For roofs of 4:12 or greater, a single layer is all that's required
(R905.3.3.2 "High Slope Roofs").
30# felt (along with other materials) is only required in the valleys.
There's also a reference for two layers in section R905.2.7.1 for two layers
to be cemented together for ice protection.
R905.2.7.1 "In areas where the average daily temperature in January is 25
deg. or less" .. "an ice barrier that consists of at least two layers of
underlayment cemented together, or of a self-adhering polymer modified
bitumen sheet, shall be used in lieu of normal underlayment and extend from
the eave's edge to a point at least 24in. inside the exterior wall line of
the building." So you can use either and the self-sealing is unquestionably
the better (and that's what I used on my house when I re-roofed.)
In both cases the requirement is for ASTM D226 Type I or ASTM D 4869 Type I
which is for standard shingle underlayment, or what's called 15# felt. ASTM
D 1970 is also referenced for the self-adhering underlayment.
You got me curious and looked them up in the ASTM standards to see what they
specified for weight. D226 Type I was 11.5lb./100sq.ft. min., D4869 was
8lb./100sq.ft. min. and D1970 wasn't specified. (Interesting, not even close
None of the cities I work in, would allow two layers cemented together, for
a substitute. How would two layers stop ice back-up? It would just back-up
under the layer closest to the sheathing, and/or back-up on top of the layer
closest to the shingles, which is perforated by the nail shanks. Granite,
it wouldn't back up between the layers. But, the damage would be the same if
there wasn't any underlayment.
I can assure you, a double layer of felt, is not acceptable as a substitute
in Northeast Ohio, in the cities we work. I know Ohio has many towns, which
doesn't require permits to be pulled, or licensing to do work, or
inspections of certain work. But, as you know, each city must adopt the
entire code they operate under as the minimum, from there it just gets
As a licensed & registered GC in the cities, I'm unfamiliar with State
Licensing which is required for plumbing/HVAC/electrical.
I have to take something back, when I said I "never heard of two layers
cemented together", I was mistaken. It seems to me, about 30+ years ago, I
recall troweling Karnak 19 to adhere two layers together. Had I had a clue
back then, I would've questioned how that would stop ice from backing
underneath the top/btm side of the two layers.
I agree that it sounds as if it would leak, but that's code, IRC, ARMA,
CABO, etc. One layer on 4:12 and grater, two layers fastened together on
lesser slopes. The deck is protected by the underlauyment, the edge by the
drip edge, the and two layers of shingles above that. My guess is, if it
leaks there is just gets into the overhang. Anyway, no one uses this method
any more, too messy and much more time consuming. But it's still code. Can't
say if your locals allow it or not, you could ask if you get a chance (not
that you would ever want to do it of course.)
I was licensed by the Ohio Board of Building Standards in Building and
Mechanical (all they required) as an out-of-state, prefab/modular inspector.
(Walk quietly and carry a big mop!) <g>
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