- Todd H -
effort trying to build a
- Nehmo - {I wrote a sarcastic reply to that, but it wasn't funny enough, so, unfortunately, I'll have to be serious.} Do you honestly expect OP's mom's roofer to respond to a threat like that?
Doesn't matter, he's right in any dialect.
It's worked for me with various home work issues in the past.
Any business owner who works off of referrals and is any brighter than a roofing nail does tend to care about their good name, not showing up in the BBB database as having unresolved issues, or in google with a long page describing in detail what a twat of a sloppy shoddy businessman he is.
But if it's an apologist idiot who isn't bright enough to understand the monetary value of good customer service, then, no, such a tack doesn't tend to help.
-- Todd H.
- wkearney99 -
- Nehmo - ?Bloody? as a throwaway adjective is unusual for leftpondians. JTMcC was straining the language section of his old brain for a creative insult, and he couldn?t get it to produce properly, so it blurted out the foreign term. Simply ?Idiot? would have concise and stronger, but his brain doesn?t have the editing capacity to do that. Such details are important: On the usenet, you are what you say.
"Stop making babies" becomes problamatic. Welfare state issues aside (ie, fewer people being taxed to support more people), there are the issues of being able to sustain a society. Negative growth rates screw up economies (just look at most of Europe - if it weren't for the imigration, they'd be in more trouble than they're in now). Also, look at China...they've had a "one child" policy for how long?
ok, I'll keep it simple asshole. i are saying, you are an asshole.
Sure, I agree. But at least us assholes understand when to use of the shift key.
What's that law of usenet? Something about when capitalization, spelling, punctuation, or Hitler analogies enter the discusion, one knows the argument has been won.
-- Todd H.
- Todd H -
- Nehmo - Two trolls could have a contest: The first to get plonked wins. Or the one to attract the most foul-word names could win too. And legitimate newsgroup posters can compete to give the best answers to questions. But outside of something like these examples, it's simplistic to reduce complicated interactions, like usenet discussions, to wins and losses.
The ?laws? you are referring to are usually humorous collections of apparent contradictions. Example: A spelling flame will have its own spelling error. More of them here:
There is only one thing to do get a lawyer and sue them.
Most likely they used two layers of 15# felt. (actually it's required in Ohio because for ice protection at the eaves.) The felt is double layered and cemented together up to a point 24in. in from the exterior walls. If the roof slope is 2:12 up to 4:12 (low-slope) a double layer is still required for the rest of the roof (otherwise 15# will be code). About the only way you can tell is to look under the shingles at the edge of the roof. You may be ably to see if it's one or two layers. (Look about mid-roof).
"> My mother had her house re-foofed and as I was cleaning up the yard I
"Dennis" wrote
I'm licensed in seven (7) cities in NorthEast Ohio, and never heard of two layers of felt.
Ice protection at eaves, two feet into the interior space, is a requirement. Two layers of felt would not be allowable to substitute for ASTM D 1970. Two layers of felt does not meet standard ASTM D 1970.
Always use required materials, otherwise you will be red tagged. In this case, it would be an ice/water guard.
Hi Gary. I was also state licensed in Ohio as an Inspector up to a couple of years ago (couldn't afford the time to attend the mandatory seminars, being out-of-state an all. Travel time killed me when I did attend.) Anyway, I believe that Ohio is now using the IRC as the basis for its code. If you have a copy (I don't have the current Ohio Building Code handy) it's in section R905.2.7 of the 2003 IRC. (My *guess* is the Ohio code reads the same in this area, but as I stated, I no longer maintain the Ohio code.)
R905.2.7 "For roof slopes from two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (17-percent slope), up to four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope), underlayment shall be two layers applied in the following manner....." (followed by a long description of how to start the felt, how much to lap, how to fasten, etc.)
For roofs of 4:12 or greater, a single layer is all that's required (R905.3.3.2 "High Slope Roofs").
30# felt (along with other materials) is only required in the valleys.There's also a reference for two layers in section R905.2.7.1 for two layers to be cemented together for ice protection.
R905.2.7.1 "In areas where the average daily temperature in January is 25 deg. or less" .. "an ice barrier that consists of at least two layers of underlayment cemented together, or of a self-adhering polymer modified bitumen sheet, shall be used in lieu of normal underlayment and extend from the eave's edge to a point at least 24in. inside the exterior wall line of the building." So you can use either and the self-sealing is unquestionably the better (and that's what I used on my house when I re-roofed.)
In both cases the requirement is for ASTM D226 Type I or ASTM D 4869 Type I which is for standard shingle underlayment, or what's called 15# felt. ASTM D 1970 is also referenced for the self-adhering underlayment.
You got me curious and looked them up in the ASTM standards to see what they specified for weight. D226 Type I was 11.5lb./100sq.ft. min., D4869 was
8lb./100sq.ft. min. and D1970 wasn't specified. (Interesting, not even close to 15lb./100sq.ft.)Best, Dennis
unquestionably
Dennis,
None of the cities I work in, would allow two layers cemented together, for a substitute. How would two layers stop ice back-up? It would just back-up under the layer closest to the sheathing, and/or back-up on top of the layer closest to the shingles, which is perforated by the nail shanks. Granite, it wouldn't back up between the layers. But, the damage would be the same if there wasn't any underlayment.
I can assure you, a double layer of felt, is not acceptable as a substitute in Northeast Ohio, in the cities we work. I know Ohio has many towns, which doesn't require permits to be pulled, or licensing to do work, or inspections of certain work. But, as you know, each city must adopt the entire code they operate under as the minimum, from there it just gets better(usually).
As a licensed & registered GC in the cities, I'm unfamiliar with State Licensing which is required for plumbing/HVAC/electrical.
I have to take something back, when I said I "never heard of two layers cemented together", I was mistaken. It seems to me, about 30+ years ago, I recall troweling Karnak 19 to adhere two layers together. Had I had a clue back then, I would've questioned how that would stop ice from backing underneath the top/btm side of the two layers.
I agree that it sounds as if it would leak, but that's code, IRC, ARMA, CABO, etc. One layer on 4:12 and grater, two layers fastened together on lesser slopes. The deck is protected by the underlauyment, the edge by the drip edge, the and two layers of shingles above that. My guess is, if it leaks there is just gets into the overhang. Anyway, no one uses this method any more, too messy and much more time consuming. But it's still code. Can't say if your locals allow it or not, you could ask if you get a chance (not that you would ever want to do it of course.)
I was licensed by the Ohio Board of Building Standards in Building and Mechanical (all they required) as an out-of-state, prefab/modular inspector.
(Walk quietly and carry a big mop!) Best Dennis
This brings to mind an interesting commentary I read recently [ afraid no cite on hand ] on the problem of economic dependence on growth in the context of finite natural resources...
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