Roofer's Contract Spec'ed #30 felt paper, but used #15 instead -- Suggestions?

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Sure, I agree. But at least us assholes understand when to use of the shift key.
--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(



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What's that law of usenet? Something about when capitalization, spelling, punctuation, or Hitler analogies enter the discusion, one knows the argument has been won.
-- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net /
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- Todd H -

- Nehmo - Two trolls could have a contest: The first to get plonked wins. Or the one to attract the most foul-word names could win too. And legitimate newsgroup posters can compete to give the best answers to questions. But outside of something like these examples, it's simplistic to reduce complicated interactions, like usenet discussions, to wins and losses.
The “laws” you are referring to are usually humorous collections of apparent contradictions. Example: A spelling flame will have its own spelling error. More of them here: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/laws.html
The Hitler one, which comes is various forms, can be summarized by Godwin's rule: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law I don’t see this one as true.
--
)|||(__ Nehmo __)|||(



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There is only one thing to do get a lawyer and sue them.
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Dishonest roofers will do this at times. They get to charge more and carry less weight. You can have an old beat up shingle roof and it still won't leak when the paper underneath is functional. The heavier paper is less apt to get damaged while installing the roof and will make the roof more serviceable. If you put an extra layer of shingles on later, which I never would suggest, it helps there too. I would not simply accept a refund of the tiny price difference on the paper. The installation is what you paid for. I would pursue it if at all possible for you to do so. I would spend money based on principle here. That's just me. My brother had his roof done by what was supposed to be a reputable construction company. However, the crew leader was dishonest. They thought they could take advantage of the situation as this brother lacked the knowledge and physical capability of inspecting the work. They ended up doing two complete tear offs before the work met the contract and I signed off on it. Fortunately, the owner of the company was reputable and did much work for the big insurance company. That provided leverage you probably don't have in your case.
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Roofing contractors seem to specalize in being rip off artists. The crook who did my mother's roof was paid to put on 30 year shingles - he used 20 and was forced to pay back a significant amount. Always always always watch these people with a hawk eye - yes there are honest contractors but there are armies of crooks out there. If they can save time of money by taking short cuts - they will do that.
When the housing boom slows down - hope the crooks get real skinny.
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The housing boom will never slow down unless we all stop making babies.
As for evaluating contractors, there is a growing website called http://www.angieslist.com/ which has customer reviews of contractors. It is not in my city yet but I definately would use such a resource as well as checking the licence for complaints before hiring a contractor.
Checking up dosen't always help when you are going for a bargain price by hiring samller unproven contractors. in that case, you have to know what you are buying and how to tell if you actually got it.
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"Stop making babies" becomes problamatic. Welfare state issues aside (ie, fewer people being taxed to support more people), there are the issues of being able to sustain a society. Negative growth rates screw up economies (just look at most of Europe - if it weren't for the imigration, they'd be in more trouble than they're in now). Also, look at China...they've had a "one child" policy for how long?
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This brings to mind an interesting commentary I read recently [ afraid no cite on hand ] on the problem of economic dependence on growth in the context of finite natural resources...
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i had a guy do that to me and i told him i wouldnt pay because he broke the contract.i said only way id pay is if he put on what was in the contract.. he hassled me for a while then went away. lucas
http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm
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...

the roof may have been done with 2 layers of 15 , arguably equal or better than 1 layer of 30 All you have to do is ask. Also all felt may have been 30, the wrapper may not be directly from your home , Ask
They may have run out of 30 and finished 1 section with a piece of 15, you could ask. Some shingle mfgs insist on shingles being installed over 15 lb felt as stated on the wrapper instructions I'dbe more concerned that the shingles were nailed to code and flashing installed and cemented properly
kickstart
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Most likely they used two layers of 15# felt. (actually it's required in Ohio because for ice protection at the eaves.) The felt is double layered and cemented together up to a point 24in. in from the exterior walls. If the roof slope is 2:12 up to 4:12 (low-slope) a double layer is still required for the rest of the roof (otherwise 15# will be code). About the only way you can tell is to look under the shingles at the edge of the roof. You may be ably to see if it's one or two layers. (Look about mid-roof).
"> My mother had her house re-foofed and as I was cleaning up the yard I

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"Dennis" wrote

of
I'm licensed in seven (7) cities in NorthEast Ohio, and never heard of two layers of felt.
Ice protection at eaves, two feet into the interior space, is a requirement. Two layers of felt would not be allowable to substitute for ASTM D 1970. Two layers of felt does not meet standard ASTM D 1970.
Always use required materials, otherwise you will be red tagged. In this case, it would be an ice/water guard.
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Hi Gary. I was also state licensed in Ohio as an Inspector up to a couple of years ago (couldn't afford the time to attend the mandatory seminars, being out-of-state an all. Travel time killed me when I did attend.) Anyway, I believe that Ohio is now using the IRC as the basis for its code. If you have a copy (I don't have the current Ohio Building Code handy) it's in section R905.2.7 of the 2003 IRC. (My *guess* is the Ohio code reads the same in this area, but as I stated, I no longer maintain the Ohio code.)
R905.2.7 "For roof slopes from two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (17-percent slope), up to four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope), underlayment shall be two layers applied in the following manner....." (followed by a long description of how to start the felt, how much to lap, how to fasten, etc.)
For roofs of 4:12 or greater, a single layer is all that's required (R905.3.3.2 "High Slope Roofs"). 30# felt (along with other materials) is only required in the valleys.
There's also a reference for two layers in section R905.2.7.1 for two layers to be cemented together for ice protection.
R905.2.7.1 "In areas where the average daily temperature in January is 25 deg. or less" .. "an ice barrier that consists of at least two layers of underlayment cemented together, or of a self-adhering polymer modified bitumen sheet, shall be used in lieu of normal underlayment and extend from the eave's edge to a point at least 24in. inside the exterior wall line of the building." So you can use either and the self-sealing is unquestionably the better (and that's what I used on my house when I re-roofed.)
In both cases the requirement is for ASTM D226 Type I or ASTM D 4869 Type I which is for standard shingle underlayment, or what's called 15# felt. ASTM D 1970 is also referenced for the self-adhering underlayment.
You got me curious and looked them up in the ASTM standards to see what they specified for weight. D226 Type I was 11.5lb./100sq.ft. min., D4869 was 8lb./100sq.ft. min. and D1970 wasn't specified. (Interesting, not even close to 15lb./100sq.ft.)
Best, Dennis

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Dennis,
None of the cities I work in, would allow two layers cemented together, for a substitute. How would two layers stop ice back-up? It would just back-up under the layer closest to the sheathing, and/or back-up on top of the layer closest to the shingles, which is perforated by the nail shanks. Granite, it wouldn't back up between the layers. But, the damage would be the same if there wasn't any underlayment.
I can assure you, a double layer of felt, is not acceptable as a substitute in Northeast Ohio, in the cities we work. I know Ohio has many towns, which doesn't require permits to be pulled, or licensing to do work, or inspections of certain work. But, as you know, each city must adopt the entire code they operate under as the minimum, from there it just gets better(usually).
As a licensed & registered GC in the cities, I'm unfamiliar with State Licensing which is required for plumbing/HVAC/electrical.
I have to take something back, when I said I "never heard of two layers cemented together", I was mistaken. It seems to me, about 30+ years ago, I recall troweling Karnak 19 to adhere two layers together. Had I had a clue back then, I would've questioned how that would stop ice from backing underneath the top/btm side of the two layers.
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I agree that it sounds as if it would leak, but that's code, IRC, ARMA, CABO, etc. One layer on 4:12 and grater, two layers fastened together on lesser slopes. The deck is protected by the underlauyment, the edge by the drip edge, the and two layers of shingles above that. My guess is, if it leaks there is just gets into the overhang. Anyway, no one uses this method any more, too messy and much more time consuming. But it's still code. Can't say if your locals allow it or not, you could ask if you get a chance (not that you would ever want to do it of course.)

I was licensed by the Ohio Board of Building Standards in Building and Mechanical (all they required) as an out-of-state, prefab/modular inspector.

(Walk quietly and carry a big mop!) <g> Best Dennis
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