roof leak

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Your information is incorrect. This coming from someone who worked in the ice dam capital of the USA.
The granules on shingles is for water diversion/dispersing, otherwise water would _shoot_ down fast like on a metal roof. If one makes the shingles tight against step flashing, water is dispersed and can go under the shingle, taking the path of least resistance. You should have a small channel at the shingle and any accessory, such as step flashing, pot vents, soil boots, etc. You _want_ a channel for a path of least resistance.
"Lots" of roofing cement should _not_ be in any roofers vocabulary. A small bead on the _hidden_ edge is all, which is needed. "Liberally coated" is a term used in hot mopping, not shingles.
With your attitude of how you want your roof done, you will never get a professional.
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slowing down the water as you state is their SECONDARY purpose. at best. The primary purpose is to protect the "fabric" of the shingle from sun and weather damage. When the granules dissapear, the felt backing of the shingle is soon gone as well. Another MAJOR purpose of the ceramic granules is to provide fire resistance. If you do not believe me, see: http://www.nrca.net/consumer/types/asphalt.aspx
I also know what step flashing is, and how it is installed here. Step flashing is fully coated on the bottom side with roofing cement and nailed down at the top edge, then the shingle is placed over the flashing and sealed down with roofing cement. The shingles are cut to leave roughly 1/2 inch gap between the end of the shingle and the step flashing. The next step is then placed over the shingle, with the metal tab extending JUST ABOVEwhere the bottom end of the next shingle tab will end. (Up to 1/2 inch of step flashing MAY show below each shingle tab, but I prefer to see NO flashing showing beyond the shingle.) It is done this way here to prevent the shingles from lifting off the step flashing in high winds and to seal the flashing to the roof. It is generally only nailed to the roof deck, making it possible to remove and replace step flashing when replacing a roof without disturbing the aluminum or vinyl siding most commonly used on the upper floor walls and gable ends of houses here.
The roofer who installed the first replacement roof on our house (before I bought it) did not seal the step flashing and we had a leak down the wall that dripped out of the door between the house and garage when it rained within a year of us buying the house.
We replaced that roof - my father who worked for many years in construction, along with several experienced friends and myself. When Dad saw how the step flashing had been installed (it was exposed to a large degree ) he said the guy who installed it should be shot. The new step flashing was installed with fibrated plastic roofing cement on both sides - and it never leaked again. Used just over a quart of cement between the step flashing above the garage and the chimney flashing.
When the shingles (first generation fiber-glass -( not the best quality stuff although it was "high end" at the time) started to crack and curl after loosing much of the granule coating, I paid a roofer (who did the roofing on many of the houses my Dad worked on over the years) to do the job with laminated architectural shingles and specified I wanted tar paper on the whole roof, and the step flashing cemented. He said most people don't do it that way any more because it costs more. "how much more?" I asked him. He said MABEE $200. I said $200? DO IT!!!" He said he wished everyone thought that way -
See http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/roof-flashing-wall.htm for confirmation that I am not the only one who thinks this is the right way to do it. And no, I didn't write it. http://toolbelt.buildiq.com/tool-docs/SBS/RFStepFlashSBS.pdf also shows the same method but does not mention the roofing cement. Also see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzOn_8t4mZ4

As for the "root flashing" or "L" flashing, it is not uncommon to nail it down where required and cover the flashing with a top row of shingles cut to fit (exposed part only) stuck to the top of the flashing with roofing cement. Makes the "L" flashing totally disapear. Again, not as common as it used to be because it adds a small amount to the cost of the job.
If the job's worth doing, it's worth doing right.
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On Nov 11, 11:49 pm, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Man, I do not understand that stuff at all. How are you supposed to rip a roof and reuse the flashing if it's glued top and bottom with roof cement?
I also don't understand about you "specifying" to a roofer that you want building felt on the whole roof. Every single roofing manufacturer in existence already specified it in every piece of literature they have, and on the every freaking bundle of shingles. It would be like telling a car dealer, "Hey, make sure there are tires on those wheels!"
Omitting the building felt or other underlayment automatically voids the warranty. The fire resistance rating of the shingle is determined with the building felt in place. It would kind of suck if your house burned down and the insurance company refused to pay because you had an un-rated roof assembly.
As far as the ice damming, that is not as much of a function of shingling or flashing technique as a lack of insulation low down on the roof, and that's where most ice damming occurs. That is one reason that code requires self-sealing membrane at the eaves extending up the roof a couple feet past the wall line, but does not require membrane at the side wall. If you have a history of ice damming at your side walls, due to insufficient wall insulation, then self- sealing membrane should be installed extending up the wall and on to the roof, and then the step flashing should be installed as the shingles go on. The step flashing gets nailed only to the wall to facilitate reroofing.
You do some things in some very different ways. I don't see any easy way to do a total ripoff and reroof after you've - sorry - ruined the step flashing with the roof cement. How do you strip a roof and reuse the step flashing? That first link kind of contradicts itself and is vague on the point of reroofing. Here's what it advises about reasons for reroofing: "Flashing needs replacement. (It is worth noting that most roofing contractors will not replace existing flashing when re- roofing. The reason being that most flashing sits on the roof deck, below the existing shingles.)" That is not true at all about step flashing, so I'm not sure what they mean about most roofing sitting on the roof deck.
Your second link shows exactly what I described above, except they call the self-sealing membrane underlayment (which could be plain old 15" building felt). No mention of roof cement, all nails in step flashing are into the side wall only. That link specifically disagrees with what you have said you do.
Okay...that last video just pissed me off. I am, seriously, going to call GAF tomorrow and rip them a new one. The video has at least four major mistakes. "I ALWAYS replace ALL flashing. It's not worth reusing it to save a few bucks!" Are they kidding me?! Try hundreds and hundreds of dollars. I'm supposed to pull siding, and chase out grout lines to remove flashing? Then install new flashing, reinstall (or, more likely, replace) the siding, regrout, and REPAINT? For a reroof?! Those guys are on crack.
They show the chimney with nice copper flashing, and the voice over is telling you to remove all the flashing. There's no reason to replace that flashing. If you nail into the roof, yeah, sure, it'll be easy to remove that flashing - ruin it - but easy to remove it. That makes a re-roof more expensive. Then what are you supposed to do - slide step flashing up under the siding somehow? Yeah, easier said than done, and most times essentially impossible. The step flashing should extend up the wall a good three or four inches minimum. It was also really light gauge aluminum. He's talking about replacing all of the flashing as it's not worth saving the "few dollars", then he installs that crap?
R
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:10:14 -0800 (PST), RicodJour

You don't re-use flashing - generally speaking.

The VAST MAJORITY of shingled roofs in the last 10 years have not got tar paper or roof felt on them

Not true

hits, and the eve is in shade, or the area next to the wall where the step flashin is is in the shade, you get ice buildup - also known as ice damming, even if the insulation is excellent. It happens sometimes on our house which has over 18 inches of blown fiberblass in the attic. - but on the roof of the unheated garage which butts up against the south-east wall of the house.

As I said - the step flashing is not necessarily re-used

And the first link says into the roof deck only - which is how it is usually done here - allowing the flashing to be pulled from behind the siding and easily replaced.

That is only necessary if you do things bass ackwards and nail the step flashing to the wall instead of the roof.

It's done all the time.

the world.
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On Nov 12, 10:55 pm, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Well, if the last guy makes sure you can't, I guess that makes your method required. I try really hard not to screw the guy that comes after me. I install access panels, leave some slack in the wiring so there's some play at the box, don't bury junction boxes, make maintenance as easy as possible, etc.
It takes no more time to install the flashing to the wall in new construction, and it doesn't change anything other than allowing the flashing to be re-used. Where exactly is the harm in that? I'll get to the part where the major players recommend how I do it a bit further down.
You're married to "this is the way we've always done it!" and refusing to see that you wouldn't be giving anything up.

That's just simply bullshit. There are hacks everywhere, but the VAST MAJORITY of contractors are not hacks. Most people read the instructions and follow the manufacturer's installation recommendations. You do know that code requires you to follow the manufacturer's instructions on roofing materials, right? You do know that the IRC requires underlayment, right? What the hell are you arguing about? Take away a little education from this instead of arguing while standing on no legs.
Here's the NY version of the IRC, which has very minor differences. No differences in the underlayment requirement.
§RR905.2.7 Underlayment application. For roof slopes from two units vertical in 12 units horizontal (17-percent slope), up to four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope), underlayment shall be two layers applied in the following manner. Apply a 19-inch (483 mm) strip of underlayment felt parallel with and starting at the eaves, fastened sufficiently to hold in place. Starting at the eave, apply 36- inch-wide (914 mm) sheets of underlayment, overlapping successive sheets 19 inches (483 mm), and fastened sufficiently to hold in place. For roof slopes of four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope) or greater, underlayment shall be one layer applied in the following manner. Underlayment shall be applied shingle fashion, parallel to and starting from the eave and lapped 2 inches (51 mm), fastened sufficiently to hold in place. End laps shall be offset by 6 feet (1829 mm).
Go read your code, come back and tell me what it says.

Oh, really? You're saying that the UL and/or NFPA unilaterally changes the manufacturer's roofing system and omits the underlayment requirement from the installation? Go visit the NFPA site and read any of their numerous PDFs on asphalt and fiberglass roof shingles - they all say that they are to be tested as per the manufacturer's installation instructions, which includes the underlayment.

And I don't have to flush the toilet, but I do. It's a courtesy for the guy that comes after me, a cost savings for the owner I'm working for, and a sign of respect for the house I am working on.

Okay, you're shooting the messenger. Fine. You've picked up a copy of Fine Homebuilding once or twice? Here's a snippet from their web site from their article on how to install step flashing: "Most of the time, I like to avoid putting any extra holes in the roof surface, so I nail step flashing to the sidewall only, where both the next piece of flashing and the siding will cover the nail head." http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/departments/building-skills/installing-step-and-corner-flashing-on-a-roof.aspx
The Journal of Light Construction, ever heard of it? http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/4afcea0e142c4f9227170a32100a0636/UserTemplate/69?s=4afcea0e142c4f9227170a32100a0636&c=241b05fa5a96760cf06a2f8980d35340&p=1 "Roof/Wall Intersection Q. What is the best way to detail the connection of a pitched roof abutting a sidewall? A. According to the National Roofing Contractors Association, when the rake edge of a pitched roof intersects a vertical wall, #15 felt should be laid under the shingles, extending 3 to 4 inches up the vertical wall. Metal step flashing (flashing shingles) should be used, with one flashing shingle for each row of shingles. The flashing shingle should be bent to extend under the asphalt shingles on the roof about 2 inches, and 4 inches up the vertical wall. Each metal shingle should be placed slightly up-roof from the bottom edge of the asphalt shingle which overlaps it. Nail the flashing shingle with one nail along the upper end of the vertical leg, as shown in the illustration."
That article referenced the National Roofing Contractors Association recommendations, you can look that one up on your own as you already included a link to a page on their site.

Generally there's about an inch gap above the shingles to the bottom of the siding. How can you force aluminum flashing (which BTW, I don't use) three or four inches up under the siding? What about the nails holding the siding/trim in place? What about stucco siding?

No, it really isn't. I thought you were someone who appreciated good work, and were on this newsgroup to help other people. You're arguing that code doesn't matter, the testing agencies are to be ignored, that the manufacturers don't know what they are talking about, that there's no problem with voiding a warranty and there's no point in making the next guy's job easier/cheaper.
PLEASE. Do yourself a favor and go check what I've said. It doesn't matter what is done in a particular neck of the woods if it violates all of the things I mentioned above. There's a right way and a wrong way, and you seem to be pushing to legitimize the latter.
There's nothing wrong with learning. There is something wrong with being afraid to look because you're afraid you won't like what you learn. By all rights you should be paying me for the education I'm giving you, instead of arguing about it.
Forget about where I live and how I do things. Go check your local code and let everybody know what it requires.
R
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:30:09 -0800 (PST), RicodJour

3 out of 5 roofers I contacted brfore having my roof installed this last time would not install "roofing felt" over the whole roof. Only 2 would, and neither one did it as standard procedure.

That may be what is recommended - not necessarily what is actually done.

I'm saying the insurance company will not fail to pay because there is no roofing felt.

Makes it a royal bitch to replace flashing that DOES require replacing when it is nailed to the wall under the siding. And you don't have much to nail it to either with glass-clad or ten-test sheathing.

be OVER the shingles.
THAT IS WRONG. You won't argue that, I hope.
I said if any roofer put my roof on with the step flashing showing, he'd be tearing it off and doing it over..
Someone said I was wrong there. You won't argue that either, will you?
And I have installed quite a few roofs over the years - including step flashing (even into brick walls) and even cedar and white pine shakes. Even a few of the old interlocking square shingles.(repair only - now THOSE are fun). Just not young enough to do it any more so I hired it done this time. ANd I had to be specific to get it done the way I figured was right - which meant 15lb felt (tar paper) over the entire roof.
You are not arguing I am wrong to demand that, are you? I'm NOT SAYING it is not "required" - just saying it VERY OFTEN is not installed.
That is from my experience - can't argue with that either. What is, is - not necessarily what should be.
Also not saying you cannot nail step flashing to the wall - The important thing is it only gets nailed to one or the other - and the guys I learned from nailed to the roof and sealed the step flashing to the roof, and stuck the shingles to the step flashing with fibrated plastic roofing cement (usually Bull-dog wet-stick) and those step flashings never leaked, and the high winds we often see here never tore the shingles away from the flashed part of the roof. When you get huge drifts of snow banked against the wall, then get 2 days of thaw and a hard freeze, you get ice in the valleys and against the walls (where the step flashing is) and often on the eaves too - no matter how well insulated the house is. Insulation makes a BIG difference in normal conditions, for sure. The way the step flashing was installed on the original roof when I bought my house it DID leak when the snow piled up against the wall, melted and froze. It was not sealed with roofing cement, and not nailed to the roof. It needed to be replaced, and the siding was on the wall. Not fun removing the screwed up flashing - I can tell you that.
Cann\\'t really argue THAT either, can you?? How, pray tell me, do you nail step flashing to the wall when doing a re-roof on a house with aluminum siding???? I'll tell you - you DON'T. You nail it to the roof. Knit or woven valleys are common here too for the same reason - they don't blow off and they don't leak. They are generally done over a steel or aluminum valley flashing sealed to the roof with roofing cement and covered with self stick or torch-down roof membrane so they don't flex and crack. The old-timers and quality consious guys do it this way - the guys doing "tract houses" or houses built on spec do it the cheap and easy way - metal valley flashing and shingles cut to leave the metal valley exposed.
You just like to argue. You keep saying I'm wrong. Mabee in a perfect world I would be.
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Since you like GAF for reference, you better read up on underlayment. Especially the part about in order to maintain UL Class A fire rating. You did not contact any professionals for an estimate.

Not being done, does in noway make it the right thing to do. Geesh!

You know this how?

I suppose you're referring to me. Read this slowly, NOWHERE did I say step flashing is supposed to go over the shingles. I said APRON flashing. APRON is different than step, need I explain the difference?
My reference was step flashing will be seen, by having a channel or where siding does not run tight to roof line. I say you're wrong to cover as much as possible (make it tight as possible). A half inch channel will allow water to flow. If you ever been involved in fixing a mess where the material was tight against the upside leg of step, you would see debis under that shingle. This is caused by restricting or obstructing the flow of water.

Oh my gosh, we have a winner. You are showing how much you _DON"T_ know. Step flashing is _never_ "into" brick! Besides being vitually impossible to do, that is why you brake & install counter flashing. The step flashing is on the outside of the brick. Next time you attempt to B.S. someone, you'll at least have your story straight.
For someone who talks about ice dams, all you talk about is felt as underlayment. There is a product out, or has been out for 30 years or so, called ice guard. Every major player in the manufacturing of roof materials, offers it. Maybe read up on it, so you can say you've installed thousands of feet. If you wanted the job done right, you should at least know about it.
You know, you may BS people, which don't have an inkling about this profession. However, you keep digging yourself deeper & deeper attempting to show you know something. When in fact, you really don't have a clue.

Unfortunately, too many people think like you do. The "oh well, this is the way we do it". If they got into the real world, and had to do quality work, they probably would be washing dishes.

Good grief. That doesn't mean you have to butcher it for the next person. I live in tornado alley, we are beyond the high winds. And, never have seen shingles torn from step flashing. Entire roofs gone, second stories gone, not just shingles by the flashing. I do know, if we ran into a job where someone cemented all the flashing down, and it couldn't be saved/salvaged. The charges for _hidden/extra_ work incurred would run into hundreds of dollars.

You need to read up on causes of ice dams. Ice will form on eaves first (not sometimes as you say). I'm not going to explain it to you. You really need to read, and not on some vacuum cleaner site.

Wow, any valley done correctly, will not leak. Metal, woven, or a half woven w/cut back. You absolutely contradicted yourself. A metal exposed valley is more time consuming than having a closed valley. If you really knew anything, you wouldn't have made that statement. Torch down would get you a fine around here, besides being outdated at least 30 years. You don't seal the back of metal valleys, where are you getting this information? You don't run metal under a closed valley, it would serve zero purpose. You certainly are misinformed.

No, it's not arguing. He just doesn't like misinformation spread.
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By "professionals" I mean they do it for pay, for a living. It's their "day job" and they are in the yellow pages under "roofers"

I never said irt WAS right - or I wouldn't have demanded the underlayment be installed. Would I??

is the assistant operations manager? Good enough for ya?

IF it was you, I clearly stated STEP flashing and you said if I wanted it done that way I'd never get a "professional" to do it for me - yada yada yada.. If it WASN't you, whoever it was DID say that.

On some 100 year old brick farm houses the step flashing IS set into the brick - no counter flashing used. - and NOT nailed to the roof in that case. Martared into the brick joints and some real nasty angles.

- Self sticking orTorch down roof membrane as it is also known

SMART ASS - I never said it was right or acceptable - I said that is how it is done. Get over it, and yourself. Fer cryin' out loud

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Exactly, it doesn't make them a professional. The first clue would be having to "ask" for underlayment.

And, being in snow country, where's the ice guard? You got what you deserved.

Now, if you were to say she was an adjuster, you would have something. But, working in an insurance office, doesn't remotely qualify someone to be an adjuster. You should know an adjuster requires qualifications not obtained in the office. You keep trying to pull yourself off as someone with knowledge, and end up looking like a, well, like a fool.

Nope, look again! I commented on the entire cloud 9, you attempted to be on. Go ahead, look!

It's called a one piece. See, you don't even know all counter flashing _should_ be tucked into mortar joints. Nasty angles? Who are you trying to kid? That's the work I loved to do, and I can tell, you've never done it. You cut joints if there isn't any, with a angle grinder. There's some more information for you, for the next person you try to BS.

LOL... Don't be upset because you got called out on your lies, and caught. What's that saying, it's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. You probably want to take that saying to heart.

Yep, c ya around. Have a nice evening.
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BTW, the technical term for the cut in mortar joints is called a reglet. And, in the old days those one piece were laid while the chimney was being built. Just a bit of information, next time you feel like telling stories.
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because the bricks run horizontally and vertically, and the roof runs at an angle.
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My point was about placing an obstruction in the path of water flow. I don't want to get off topic taking it how a shingle is constructed. Heck, we could go into opacity of the granules as well, but it has absolutely nothing to do with water flow.

No, but you created a problem when you go to replace that roof. If you _must_ use some existing flashing, you'll have a heck of a time trying to get it unstuck. More is not better. Your analogy would be similar if someone were to say, just spread tar all over everything. It never leaked. There's a correct way to flash, and the way your father did it. Sorry, but professionals would never do it the way your father did.
Wow, what a nightmare, especially if one would to have stucco siding, as the link you provided.

Yep, you live in an area without strict codes. I have never worked an area where felt was an option. No doubt why you get away with certain methods.

The problem with the first site you provided is, they appear to be "experts" from vacuums to software & everything else. I really hope you don't think this site would convince me or anyone else besides yourself, to take them seriously.
The problem with the second site you provided is, someone cut the step flashing too short, and forgot about the starter strip. I don't believe in regulating the internet, but stuff like this shouldn't be allowed.
The problem we see with GAF, is they don't even recommend using a second layer of protection at step flashing. Such as a small bead of sealant along the hidden edge, let alone _embedding_ step flashing in cement. Of course, they are using a 10"x7" step flashing, instead of standard size. As I said _B/4_, around here condominium associations _require_ all apron flashing to be covered by roofing material. Put some thought into this one, there is no doubt water will be trapped. By shingling over the flashing, you depend on the sealant to be you first & _only_ protection from intrusion. Water will sit trapped, until it evaporates or takes the course of least resistance.
It's your roof, there's plenty of people to take your money. Unfortunately, you will find them.
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On Nov 11, 8:08 pm, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I have never heard of "root flashing" for anything roof related. I did a quick Google and that word, I do not think it is what you think it is. Check it and see. The only places that "root flashing" showed up in a search is where the OCR misinterpreted 'roof flashing'.
The flashing you are referring to is called, on both sides of the pond, apron flashing. A chimney has apron flashing bridging the gap from the roof to the chimney at the bottom edge of the chimney, step flashing running up along the sides, and a counter flashing which is tucked into the mortar joints and wraps down to cover the top of the apron and step flashing.
There is some rather heated discussion between the two camps on how step flashing is covered by roof shingles. Some say to run the shingles tight to the wall, and others swear there has to be a gap. If the flashing is installed correctly and of sufficient size, either will work and not present problems.
There is never a situation on new construction where a nail has to be placed through the flashing and the nail head left exposed. Cleats or clips are the standard way to deal with the problem. If a roofer doesn't know how to install a cleat, he isn't a roofer, no matter what he does to earn money.
R
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On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:26:28 -0800 (PST), RicodJour

And sometimes at the high side of the chimney too - chimneys are not always at the peak of the roof

The guys around here call it "L" flashing or root flashing., but yes, it is also called apron flashing. Most often tucked up under and behind the bottom row of siding on the upper floor walls. (Most 2 stories in our area are brick veneer on the bottom floor with aluminum (or lately vinyl) siding on the upper floor.

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Excellent analysis, Kerry. The age thing may have crept up on you - mine seems to be running! ;) - but you've lost nothing. I'll reinforce your words in my reply to the OP.
BTW, post more often. We need experience and sharp minds.
R
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Thanks for the kind words, something you don't see on Usenet often!
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Okay, we got a picture, now all we have to do is get a picture that actually shows in detail the area in question. You are wasting your and other people's time by being parsimonious with the required information. We don't need a picture of your very nice house - we need a detailed, up close and personal picture of the problem area on your very nice house. That single nail might be the problem, or you might have a bigger problem. Without better information from you, you might be getting a useful response or not - you'll never know, and we won't either.
Use the zoom on your camera, stick the camera out the window and take some pictures.
R
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I am a professsional roofer located in CT. The leak is probably at the pitch change between the upper steeply pitched roof and the lower "moderately" pitched roof. The step flashing in this area is two small to handle the backwash of the pitch change. We usually cover the entire lower pitched are with self adhesive ice & water barrier and install an oversized flashing detail at the pitch change the covers the last two sourse of the low pitched roof. Good luck!
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wrote:

I don't know about that. It's possible, but the OP's sorry picture has the arrow pointing to a spot that's a distance away from the step flashing on the pitched part of the roof running along that wall, and under the window. There's no up-slope area, just the wall and window. We need better pictures! Coloradotrout, provide them forthwith!
R
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