Replacing al wiring.

[Dom]

I was wondering if someone would know this. I have AL wiring in the house. I'm renovating whole house and was thinking of replacing old wiring. I'm not planing on removing the walls, but will be able to open up the floors. I have good access from the attic. Currently other than the light fixtures there is absolutely no junction boxes in the attic. All the outlets are wires in series. Here is the question. Is it against the code (Ontario, Canada) to put junction boxes and wire the outlets directly from the junction boxes ( I suppose I could manage to wire two outlets per junction box), or should I follow the current design. House was wired in late 60's.

Thanks for all your help.

[dpb]

Don't follow the description clearly -- what happens to the existing outlet(s)/wire?

In general, I don't think there's an proscription against using the junction box as long as they are acessible, but as noted, don't follow the plan well enough as described to see what you're actually driving at so no detailed thoughts beyond that at the moment...

[Dom]

Thanks for the reply. Sorry for not being clear on my plans. Basically I want to rewire existing outlets with new cable (14-2), by pulling out the old AL wire. I will use the existing wire to fish the new one in place and use junction boxes to connect the outlets. At the same time I would like to put ceiling light fixtures and wire them to the existing switches that were connected to one of the outlets.

Hope this time I was more clear on what I wanted to do.

Dom

[dpb]

Unless something unique in CN code, don't see any problem again as long as the junction boxes are acessible. What you may run into is a problem in getting the old wire out w/o tearing up the wall as they may well have stapled it to joists tightly enough you'll not pull it. If, of course, you can, there's no reason you can't pull up and through the attic from one receptacle to the next where you don't need a junction box for some other purpose. You would start the feed by pulling the old with a string attached, of course, then feed from one end and use the fish again at the other to pull back down. Assuming open wall cavities (no infill insulation, blocking, plumbing, etc., etc.) you could probably pull two 14's together. OTOH, in the big scheme of things if you're doing significant remodeling, repairing a few holes in the walls may be simpler overall.

[gfretwell]

This won't work. The wire will be stapled to the studs and will not really pull out that easy. You certainly will not be pulling the new wire in that way. This is going to be a bigger job that you planned. The first thing you need to find out is if the stud bays have "fire stops" in them. (2x4s across the bay 4' up) That will really frustrate your wire pulling unless you can come up from the bottom. They do make a "diversibit" that is 5' long to drill these from the top but be careful you don't miss and come out the drywall. Then fish down with a short piece of chain in the string so you can catch it with a retriever magnet through the hole in the box. It is as hard as it sounds.

[dpb]

BTW, if you're going to the trouble of doing this, you'll certainly want to run 14-2 w/g, not just 14-2. You may have already intended this but not stated it explicitly, but just in case.

IOW, if you're thinking of simply replacing 2-prong outlets' wiring with CU instead of AL, I don't think that's a good decision but you should go the route of also upgrading to grounded outlets.

[Dom]

Yes the AL wire is already grounded. I will be pulling 14-2 w/g. I have peeked through the top of the wall joists and it looks like there is no fire blocking materials, it is open all the way down. I was not sure about usage of the junction boxes since general there is some moisture in the attics.

[Dom]

About stamping the wire to the joist near the outlets, is there any techniques for that without making a hole in the drywall? I know some of the walls don't have fire stops, so that should help things.

[dpb]

OK, good...just didn't want a DOH! moment here... :)

As I noted earlier, if you're doing a fair amount of remodeling and it is actually drywall and not lath and plaster, the difficulty in patching drywall is minimal in comparison to the gyrations you may have to go through to fish and pull wire to try to avoid damaging the walls.

As for removing staples, depends. :) If you can remove the box, you may have enough room to get a bar or other tool where you can pull it or get enough slack behind it. Then again, in doing that you may well tear up the wallboard anyway, so might as well have made the access hole to start. Only way in "old work" to know is when you start trying. And, just because one works doesn't mean the same technique/ trick will work on the next one. All in all, I'd just make access as needed to do the job and then fix it.

Sufficient moisture in the attic to be concerned about it not being classifiable as "dry" per electrical code is indicative of some other problem that needs fixing, probably worse than the wiring needs to be replaced if it's not an immediate concern (as in you're already having hot-spots, etc.).

Don't know what you're referring to, but it can't be good... :(

[terry]

text -

Dampness in the attic may indicate inadequate ventilation up there, no matter where the moisture is coming from that can lead to rot and mould!

[gfretwell]

You don't have to staple the wire when you are "fishing". That is only when the walls are open and it is mostlly to keep the sheet rock guy from damaging the wire when he is putting up the wall. If you don't have firestops in the wall it should be a lot easier to fish in the wire. You can probably just abandon the aluminum in place if it won't pull out. The chain and magnet trick still works pretty well. Take the clamp completely out of the box to get the best chance you can. Use a telescoping retriever magnet and steel "ball chain" like you have on a pullchain light.. There are several kinds so take a magnet with you when you buy it and get the stuff that sticks best.

[Dom]

I'm pretty sure this is against the code. Are you sure this can be done. It would save a lot of time to make (and patch) holes at every switch outlet to staple the wires to the joists.

[Dom]

text -

When I stated generally there is moisture in the attics I mean is sort of outside your house. I don't seen anything like that in my attics. Just wanted to be sure junction boxes can go there.

[EXT]

Yes you can have junction boxes in the attic.

One other note, a house built in the late 60's will have fairly poor insulation and no real vapour barrier in the outside walls. Drywall is so easy to install, it would be simpler to pull all the old drywall off the outside walls and make an easy job of wiring the walls with insulation. At this point remove all the insulation, caulk any draft leaks in the sheathing, and install modern efficient insulation and an approved 6 mil vapour barrier then re-drywall.

After seeing how much simpler it is to wire, and to update the wiring to include the addition of communications lines and cable lines, you may decide to strip off all the other walls too. This is what I have done when fully remodelling a room.

[tksirius]

The wire is most likely stapled. That's the first problem.

I presume since the house was built in the 60's you are using BX cabling???? If you are planning on using romex then the outlet boxes that you are connecting to will not be to code. They are specifically made for armored cable. Unless you plan on using armored again then you'll have issues.

Getting the old outlets out is a real pain in the *ss because they are nailed into the studs. What you can do is remove them and put in remodel plasic boxes using romex. Granted its not stapled inside the walls but such is life. \\

Tom

[Dom]

Thanks for the response. I dont think it is armored. It looks like its wrapped in material like black casing and there before that wrapped in paper ... How is the old box different that the current ones.

Thanks

[Chris Lewis]

It's the same in the Canadian code.

[Chris Lewis]

60's wiring in Ontario is primarily cloth wrapped copper with some plastic sheathed copper towards the end of the decade. There will only be BX cable in certain exposed locations (if any).

I'm surprised that it's aluminum. That was a little later (early-mid 70's), and usually was plastic sheath. Are you _sure_ it's aluminum? I don't recall ever seeing cloth-wrapped aluminum here.

You can use the junction boxes as you'd like, however, routing wiring and boxes in an attic can be tricky w.r.t. codes - so, you need to stop what you're doing and go to the store and buy a copy of the "Orange book".

The orange book is "Ontario Electrical Code Simplified" by PS Knight. It's cheap (should still be

[Dom]

Thanks again Chris,

I will look into that book for sure. I'm 99.9% positive its al as it metallic silver in colour and very easy to break by twisting. What do you mean by w.r.t codes. Did a google search on it but did not come up with anything in context. What did you have in mind when you said tricky? Lastly I have heard there is new codes in the making, have you heard anything about it?

TIA

Dom

[dpb]

If it's like NEC (which I suspect it is), I presume Chris is thinking of the accessibility rules on exposed cabling (he can obviously correct/amplify if I'm guessing wrong). The definition of what constitutes "access" and "use" is such that even if all there is is a trap door w/ a ladder and you go up there once a year for storage, strictly speaking there should be no exposed wiring but all protected.

His suggestion for a "Wiring Simplified" CN equivalent and reading it through is an _most_excellent_ recommendation. Sorry I wasn't the one who made it (altho I don't know the specific one for you, anyway). :)