Replacement of old MAIN all-fuse panel with a circut breaker panel

[Jim Elbrecht]

Except a little different. With a minimum of common sense caution, a tire change in unlikely to cause you any damage. A slip of a screwdriver, or a sharp piece of metal could fry you in place, flash and blind you, or start your house on fire. And it could do it 3 years from now while you're sleeping.

Being careful not to cause a short in the process-- and by bypassing a seal that the power company put there to keep you from touching things. By breaking the seal you likely lose your fire insurance coverage if your bean-counting insurance company can blame the electric lines for the fire.

That part is similar-- but be sure to inspect, with your non-professional eye, every wire that you remove.-- and don't pull any insulation off under a staple or though a cable connector with your clumsy, inexperienced fingers.

Here's where it gets fun-- rerouting all those wires so they fit isn't likely. You will probably have to make some junction boxes. In the time you spend scratching your head and trying to decide how best to do this-- the pro who has been here 100 times before has the job done and is picking up his tools. [and if he screwed something up-- he gets a call and comes back to fix it]

I'm all for DIY- and have done stuff that everyone said to leave to the pros. But the risk/reward on replacing an entrance panel doesn't make it sound like a good idea to me.

Jim

[HeyBub]

Yeah, but things can go terribly, terribly wrong in replacing a tire, too (like not tightening the lug nuts).

Two years ago we got a bid to replace a 200-Amp distribution panel. $1250.00!

After buying all the parts (retail, at Home Depot), my son and I spent a leisurely Saturday afternoon on the case. Admittedly, we had to make two additional trips to HD for overlooked gizmos to finish the task, but the out-of-pocket expense came to $320.

We saved $900 (not counting the beer).

Aside from the smoke, the thing's been working swell ever since.

[John Gilmer]

I am a friend who is "in the business" (electrician.)

He told me he NEVER coordinates with the power company ahead of time.

When he needs to, he pulls the meter and does the job. When it's safe to put the meter back he calls the power company with a song and dance about it being an "emergency." They put the meter back with the seal, etc.

On "This Old House" an electrician taped the power line BEFORE the meter box and used it to power up a outlet box to supply essential loads. The guy actually does the hot wiring while standing on a fiberglass ladder. He touched only one wire at a time but his body was 120 volts! (I guess it's a local thing.)

My friend often replaces panels with CB boxes without pulling the meter. He NEVER (at least deliberately) touches a hot wire. If he needs, say, an insulated allen wrench, he will wrap the part he will hold with LOTS of electrical tape. Once he has disconnected a service wire he wraps the exposed end with lots and lots of tape.

When it's time to reconnect he cuts off the tape with an knive which which has been "helped" with more tape.

Beyond a point, they have nothing to gain by making a fuss. They can't claim "theft of services" because you are paying. It's at most a technical violation of their service teriffs. Since they are in the business of selling electricity, it's silly to disconnect a paying customer just for spite.

[clare]

No L.icenced electricians will NOT generally disconnect the LIVE power drop from the post to the meter. That makes less sense than replacing the panel live. They WILL pull the meter. And usually they WILL also put the meter back on and call the power utility to replace the seal - quite often done at the same time as the "inspection" which is required - often along with a "permit"

Except all that has to be done LIVE.

You are not an electricaian, obviously. I'm not a LICENCED electrician either, but my dad was, and I worked for him a lot as a kid.

[Evan]

They won't make a fuss with the customer, other than assessing any fees authorized by the public utility overseers in your state...

However, they can and will go after the professional with the electrical license with the public utility people or the state electrical board and have his "ticket" punched... That is not out of spite... It is out of a desire to protect the integrity of their metering equipment and distribution of services...

Not "wanting" to call ahead to have power company employees come out and pull the meter and making a bogus claim of "it was an emergency" won't fly after the second time...

~~ Evan

[hallerb]

Most often replacing the main panel REQUIRES replacing the service drop, cables age, conductors too short, espically since new main panels MUST be mouted to a wood panel, to minimize rusting, and its generally best to go to 200 amps, and a new meter can, costs little more and future proofs the install.

ALL this REQUIRES disconnecting the main before the meter, which can be safely done by a electrician.

Or have the power company do it.

[bud--]

You are generalizing from what may (or may not) be the practice where you are.

I cut seals when needed and called the utility metering department within a day or two. The utility had no problem with that.

I doubt utilities would have problems with licensed electricians cutting seals and then telling them. A licensed electrician is going to be involved in a fraud?

[Douglas Johnson]

Exactly what clause in your fire insurance policy permits them to do that? I can't find any such in mine and I've looked very carefully (Texas HO-1B). The only thing that is close would be if they decided I did it deliberately with the intent to burn the building down. Stupidity doesn't count. -- Doug

[RBM]

They won't make a fuss with the customer, other than assessing any fees authorized by the public utility overseers in your state...

However, they can and will go after the professional with the electrical license with the public utility people or the state electrical board and have his "ticket" punched... That is not out of spite... It is out of a desire to protect the integrity of their metering equipment and distribution of services...

Not "wanting" to call ahead to have power company employees come out and pull the meter and making a bogus claim of "it was an emergency" won't fly after the second time...

~~ Evan

I agree with Bud, you can't generalize these things. Where I work, there are three electric utility companies within 20 miles of me. Each has specific requirements for disconnecting and reconnecting service equipment. The most lax of the three, similar to Bud, only requires me to notify them after I've cut a meter seal, the most stringent utility company, requires verbal and written notification, using specific forms before they send someone to the job and remove their case hardened hydraulic lock from their customer's meter box.

[Evan]

It is trespassing, not fraud, the customer whose house the electric meter is installed in does not own or control the meter cabinet once the meter is installed... It is sealed with a tamper evident seal and once closed you need to call and obtain permission from the power company to access what is inside of the meter cabinet...

Just because your local utility company has made a practice of not making a major case out of it in the past has no bearing on whether they can if they wanted to...

Why do you think some of the utility companies out there use those high security metal bands and medeco locks on their meter enclosures ? It is to keep everybody but the power company out... Electricians have the ability to cut into the service drop lines if they need to kill the power where they can reconnect them without trespassing in power company enclosures...

Just because the power company has not resorted to using the metal bands around the meter and the medeco high security pin locks on the cabinet box doesn't mean you should cut the meter seal off and do whatever you want -- your customer does not have the right to give you permission to open that locked enclosure while the power company seal is in place and intact...

~~ Evan

[aemeijers]

This 'does too- does not' argument is pointless. It obviously varies by area. IANAL, but I do not think the term 'trespass' applies- more like 'violating terms of service'. My recommendation to anyone, home owner or licensed electrician, would be to pick up the phone and CALL the power company. A local tradesman is likely known to them from previous jobs, so they will say 'okay, got it', and move on. A homeowner, on the other hand, they may want to send a truck out to pull the meter, since they have no way of knowing if the homeowner knows what he is doing, even if he uses all the right words on the phone. And in my limited experience, some of those meters are surprisingly heavy, and the prongs can grab awful hard sometimes. If you don't pull it out or put it back squarely and firmly, some scary noises are possible. (I used to set up and take down temporary poles on the job sites as a kid. They didn't always have a working or unlocked kill switch on the pole. Somebody breaks the feed from temporary pole to house, sometimes pulling the meter was the only way to kill power before stepping into the mud puddle to recover the loose wire.)

[hallerb]

most a technical

if replacing the main panel most likely you will need to upgrade the amp capacity and or replace the service drop and meter can.

these all require disconnecting at the service head something only electricians or power company workers should do!!

[bud--]

You're so full of shit saying the (alleged) practices where you are (and (alleged) code enforcement where you are) applies everywhere.

The utility here has no problems with my cutting seals and telling them. Roy says that applies for one of his utilities. A number of people have said they have no problems with their utilities. Your rant doesn't change reality.

Around here extraordinary sealing is only done where the utility has evidence of tampering.

This is even stupider. I don't really think the utility wants me to remake *their* connection from their drop to the customer wires. And I sure as hell don't want to make the connection unless I really have to (like a service change). Service wires are dangerous - maybe 10,000A available current (residential) and minimal protection from the utility. OSHA has strong opinions about working on such wires.

You have multiple people telling you the same thing. Another case of everyone-is-wrong-but-Evan.

[clare]

Again, I ask - WHY would I need to upgrade the capacity when changing my 100 amp fused panel to breakers???? My load hasn't changed - I'll hve roughly the same number of circuits. my (underground) power feed is AT LEAST 1 100 amp feed. (the vast majority in my area were provisioned with 200 amp feeds, because the "all electric" home was very much in vogue when this house was built in the seventies)

And in my case would require extensive trenching etc IF an upgrade was required (which it isn't)

One day I'll likely end up replacing my panel with a breaker panel, even though fuse panels are more "reliable"

[Evan]

You do eventually want to sell your house someday, yes ?

Mortgage companies often want to see at least a 200 Amp electric service to the house to underwrite a new mortgage on the property at the change of ownership... Same deal applies on houses with septic systems, they have to be up to snuff on size and ability to perc properly or no dice on a new mortgage...

Try getting a new mortgage or selling a property using fuse panels which are "more reliable" you will not be able to get financing for a new mortgage until the old electric service equipment is upgraded to a circuit breaker panel with a minimum of a 200 Amp capacity... Unless you are going to be selling the property in a private cash sale which is a VERY rare thing, the mortgage company rules and FHA lending guidelines apply...

I have seen several house sales in my area fall through based on older septic systems which would have required replacement for the person attempting to buy the property to get financing to go through with the sale... Septic is like a $25k deal to get the whole thing done from start to finish with all the song and dance you have to go through with the environmental people and all the testing you have to do before you even break ground...

If you are going to be spending money to upgrade and modernize your house you may as well do it right the first time rather than be faced with ripping out your work in the future under some sort of deadline to try and get a sale of the property approved by the mortgage company...

~~ Evan

[clare]

100 amp is more than adequate unless you have electric heat - no problem selling or financing 100 amp service in a typical home here in central Ontario. They don't like aluminum wiring. Or iron pipes.

Nope - no problem with 100 amp fuse panel- can't sell a 40 or a 60 though - fused or not. ANd generally not a financing problem - it's an insurance problem - and without insurance you don't get financing.

[jamesgangnc]

You're just a frickin twit.

First the bs about pulling a meter. Now he's got to upgrade to 200amp or he can't sell his house.

If it's a smaller house and has other utlities for heat 100 amp service is fine.