Replaced bathroom sink - trap doesn't align

[Dan_Musicant]

Old house, replaced old 10 inch centers bathroom sink with a 1951 American Standard I picked up used. Put new faucet set on it, a Glacier Bay from Home Depot.

The brackets from the old sink fit the new one - luckily. But the last thing, putting on the trap has me stymied. Looks like the old sink stood out about an inch further from the wall in terms of where the drain is. So, the trap doesn't fit on. There's some play in where the sink sits on the brackets, and shoving it to the side helps a couple of things:

1. It gets the pop-up rod off to the side enough where it will go down without hitting the drain pipe that goes horizontally into the wall.

1. It makes the trap come within 1/2 inch of reaching. Even so, I'd have to cut off about 2 inches off the bottom of the brass pipe coming out of the pop-up assembly that came with my new faucet set.

If there's some way of decreasing the extension of the drain pipe out from the wall by 1/2 - 3/4 inch, that would solve it. There's a big nut at the wall into which the drain pipe disappears. I don't have a wrench big enough for it, except for a Ford monkey wrench. I guess I could crank on it if I put a pipe onto the wrench handle, but I'm afraid I'll snap the drain pipe. It's nothing like iron pipe. It's just some chrome plated thin stuff, or so I assume.

Is there supposed to be a washer between the nut and P trap at both ends?

What's the m.o. in situations like this? What are my options? Thanks!!

Dan

BTW: I have another virtually identical sink and same faucet set I'm going to install in my upstairs bathroom later. That one will be more trouble, I'm almost sure, because I have to remove the old bracket and install a new bracket and also make the P trap fit somehow.

[Eric in North TX]

There is usually more pipe inside the wall, and most of the time you can pull it out without loosening the nut. If not give loosening it a shot, if you are going to mess with this stuff a cheap basin wrench (or what ever they call that square tube handled spring jaw pipe wrench) would be a worthwhile investment. If the nut dissolves in your hands pick up a p-trap at the home improvement store, they aren't expensive, you can use just what you need & discard the rest or save it for next time.

[# Fred #]

1. Loosen the nut and push the pipe in. If it doesn go in any further not you could cut the pipe to length.

or

1. You could use a flex tube from top of the trap to the bottom of the sink.

[Dan_Musicant]

: :There is usually more pipe inside the wall, and most of the time you :can pull it out without loosening the nut. If not give loosening it a :shot, if you are going to mess with this stuff a cheap basin wrench (or :what ever they call that square tube handled spring jaw pipe wrench) :would be a worthwhile investment. If the nut dissolves in your hands :pick up a p-trap at the home improvement store, they aren't expensive, :you can use just what you need & discard the rest or save it for next :time.

The drain pipe out from the wall feels rigid as can be. I can't twist it or pull it out or push it in.

I'm afraid to crank on that nut for fear of breaking the drain pipe. I sure wouldn't risk putting a pipe wrench on the drain pipe!

I guess I could shop for a basin wrench, although I don't know what it is.

I don't understand your comments about buying a p-trap and using part of it and saving the rest "for next time." I have a p-trap.

The nut at the wall where the drain pipe goes in horizontally, is big and thick and appears to be aluminum. I has very small flat spots, so I guess I can torque it with the proper wrench, but as I say it's bigger than my biggest wrench (except for my Ford wrench, which I could crank with a pipe on the handle, if I want to risk decimating the thin drain pipe).

[Dan_Musicant]

: : :> If there's some way of decreasing the extension of the drain pipe out :> from the wall by 1/2 - 3/4 inch, that would solve it. There's a big nut :> at the wall into which the drain pipe disappears. : :1. Loosen the nut and push the pipe in. If it doesn go in any further not :you could cut the pipe to length.

So, that pipe attaches somehow inside the wall? How does that work? : :or : :2. You could use a flex tube from top of the trap to the bottom of the sink.

Yeah, some kind of flex tube would work, I suppose. Maybe I'll do that. I'm afraid to crank on the nut at the wall in that the drain pipe could snap or crack.

[Speedy Jim]

There is a fix meant for just this situation. It's called a "Repair Trap".

You don't need to disturb the connection in the wall. Just saw cut the tube out of the wall to the length needed to mate the Repair Trap to the basin tailpiece.

Use the finest tooth hacksaw blade so as to create minimal stress on the existing work.

Although the repair trap has rubber or plastic compression seals, I've found it helpful to apply a bit of silicone caulk as well to keep the joints in alignment afterward.

If the trap will be exposed, this repair will look "correct" rather than gimmicky.

Jim

[Dan_Musicant]

:Dan_Musicant wrote: : : : :> Yeah, some kind of flex tube would work, I suppose. Maybe I'll do that. :> I'm afraid to crank on the nut at the wall in that the drain pipe could :> snap or crack. : : : There is a fix meant for just this situation. : It's called a "Repair Trap". :

: You don't need to disturb the connection in the wall. :Just saw cut the tube out of the wall to the length :needed to mate the Repair Trap to the basin tailpiece. : : Use the finest tooth hacksaw blade so as to create :minimal stress on the existing work. : : Although the repair trap has rubber or plastic compression :seals, I've found it helpful to apply a bit of silicone caulk :as well to keep the joints in alignment afterward. : : If the trap will be exposed, this repair will look "correct" :rather than gimmicky. : :Jim

I gave it a big try yesterday to twist off that nut. It's a big nut, 2" hex with a 1 1/4 inch hole in it, aluminum. I had a parallel face wrench (I think it's a monkey wrench? Ford), and I had a pipe on it's handle and pounded it many many times with a sledge hammer and I couldn't get it to loosen. I found a wrench at a hardware store that would fit the nut, but didn't buy it. I was thinking of cutting it off. A tool lending library here opens tomorrow and I was going to wait and ask them if they have a way of loosening the nut.

Today, I decided to give another try to twisting the pipe within the nut. Grabbing it with leather gloves, I detected some play and I worked it loose! I could slide it in or out, and I've managed to get it in the correct position. I had a devil of a time getting the trap to stop leaking. When I finally got that done I found that the tail piece in the pop-up assembly was leaking water where it meets the part above it! Rats!! I took out the pop-up assembly and applied two layers of contact cement to the joint, figuring it will stop the leak. The water coming out is obviously not under much pressure. After applying the first coat of cement, I got the idea that I could have sweated the joint with solder. I think the cement will stop that leak. It's not much, just a few drops, but I want it to be perfect.

Dan

PS I think you are talking about a compression join with rubber and a couple of hose clamps, or similar, right Jim? I had that idea too, but decided that was plan B or C.

[Dan_Musicant]

: :There is usually more pipe inside the wall, and most of the time you :can pull it out without loosening the nut. If not give loosening it a :shot, if you are going to mess with this stuff a cheap basin wrench (or :what ever they call that square tube handled spring jaw pipe wrench) :would be a worthwhile investment. If the nut dissolves in your hands :pick up a p-trap at the home improvement store, they aren't expensive, :you can use just what you need & discard the rest or save it for next :time.

Thanks, Eric. Read the other post I just made. I remembered what you said about usually being able to move that pipe out (and in, I assumed) without loosening that nut. I tried again today, and managed to do just that!

Dan

[Al Bundy]

Dan_Musicant wrote in news: [e-mail]:

I haven't really understood what exactly you are doing but you mentioned leaks in the assembly. I do know that contact cement is not really in the scheme of things though!

Don't worry. I've done some unorthodox things in the past with plumbing. Did a double kitchen sink with garbage disposal. Replaced some drain pipes and all nylon slip joint washers but with 10 slip joints odds are against ya if you aren't a pro. If you take something apart because it leaks you'll fix that one and create two more. For one little drip at a joint in a setup like that, I've been known to cheat and finger in some a tiny amount of silicone. Maybe not ethical but it worked long term.

Where the popup drain sets in a bath sink gets plumbers putty.

And I've used liquid teflon tape on the slipnut joints before assembly. You're not supposed to have to if you have new slipjoint washers and good seats.

[Dan_Musicant]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 00:48:53 -0500, Al Bundy wrote:

:Dan_Musicant wrote in :news: [e-mail]: : :> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:17:04 GMT, Speedy Jim wrote: :> :>:Dan_Musicant wrote: :>: :>: :>: :>:> Yeah, some kind of flex tube would work, I suppose. Maybe I'll do that. :>:> I'm afraid to crank on the nut at the wall in that the drain pipe could :>:> snap or crack. :>: :>: :>: There is a fix meant for just this situation. :>: It's called a "Repair Trap". :>:

: :>: You don't need to disturb the connection in the wall. :>:Just saw cut the tube out of the wall to the length :>:needed to mate the Repair Trap to the basin tailpiece. :>: :>: Use the finest tooth hacksaw blade so as to create :>:minimal stress on the existing work. :>: :>: Although the repair trap has rubber or plastic compression :>:seals, I've found it helpful to apply a bit of silicone caulk :>:as well to keep the joints in alignment afterward. :>: :>: If the trap will be exposed, this repair will look "correct" :>:rather than gimmicky. :>: :>:Jim :> :> I gave it a big try yesterday to twist off that nut. It's a big nut, 2" :> hex with a 1 1/4 inch hole in it, aluminum. I had a parallel face wrench :> (I think it's a monkey wrench? Ford), and I had a pipe on it's handle :> and pounded it many many times with a sledge hammer and I couldn't get :> it to loosen. I found a wrench at a hardware store that would fit the :> nut, but didn't buy it. I was thinking of cutting it off. A tool lending :> library here opens tomorrow and I was going to wait and ask them if they :> have a way of loosening the nut. :> :> Today, I decided to give another try to twisting the pipe within the :> nut. Grabbing it with leather gloves, I detected some play and I worked :> it loose! I could slide it in or out, and I've managed to get it in the :> correct position. I had a devil of a time getting the trap to stop :> leaking. When I finally got that done I found that the tail piece in the :> pop-up assembly was leaking water where it meets the part above it! :> Rats!! I took out the pop-up assembly and applied two layers of :> contact cement to the joint, figuring it will stop the leak. The water :> coming out is obviously not under much pressure. After applying the :> first coat of cement, I got the idea that I could have sweated the joint :> with solder. I think the cement will stop that leak. It's not much, just :> a few drops, but I want it to be perfect. :> :> Dan :> :> PS I think you are talking about a compression join with rubber and a :> couple of hose clamps, or similar, right Jim? I had that idea too, but :> decided that was plan B or C. : : :I haven't really understood what exactly you are doing but you mentioned :leaks in the assembly. I do know that contact cement is not really in the :scheme of things though!

I realize that the contact cement was a stretch! I could have taken the thing back to Home Depot and gotten my money back or a replacement. I don't know why, but I decided that I could fix it with contact cement, so WTH! Now, I'm not sure I should have done that. The soldering idea was better, but I only got it after applying the first of two coats of contact cement. I left the thing in a 100 degree oven overnight for quick dry, assembled this morning and there are no leaks. The big question is - how long will it continue to not leak!

I've done many many unorthodox repairs with contact cement. I think it's one of the great secrets - its versatility. Usually, I build up layers of it. It gradually hardens over some weeks and months and ultimately forms a very tough, durable and tenaciously adhesive material unlike any other I know of. Epoxy is hard, but becomes brittle and isn't nearly as toughly adhesive as contact cement. I could have gone for more than two layers, but I was actually thinking of just using one layer, so I decided two was enough. That water isn't under pressure - it's only gravity fed. Will it last for 30-40 years? Don't know. I suppose I could buy a new popup assembly independent of a faucet if I have problems with it. Or, I could try scraping off the contact cement and do the solder fix.

I would have brought back the faucet set to Home Depot but for a couple of reasons:

1. It was hard for me to find a faucet set that I liked in terms of appearance.

1. I bought another faucet set (same one) for my other bathroom sink.

Yes, I could have returned both of them, but I didn't have an alternate set in mind and would have to shop for that. My reasoning was that if I could fix what I had satisfactorily, I'd be ahead of the game. : :Don't worry. I've done some unorthodox things in the past with plumbing. :Did a double kitchen sink with garbage disposal. Replaced some drain pipes :and all nylon slip joint washers but with 10 slip joints odds are against :ya if you aren't a pro. If you take something apart because it leaks you'll :fix that one and create two more. For one little drip at a joint in a setup :like that, I've been known to cheat and finger in some a tiny amount of :silicone. Maybe not ethical but it worked long term. : :Where the popup drain sets in a bath sink gets plumbers putty. : :And I've used liquid teflon tape on the slipnut joints before assembly. :You're not supposed to have to if you have new slipjoint washers and good :seats. : Never heard of liquid teflon tape. What's that?

I managed the joint at the end of the P trap that attaches to the popup tail piece without using teflon tape or plumbers' putty. I just used a new rubber washer under the nut, and tightened it. Nothing else stopped the leak. The other end, where I would have real problems putting in a washer, I used some plumbers' putty.

I did some repairs to the trap system under my double kitchen sink some years ago. Don't remember anything about it, but it's always been drip free since the repairs. Have made an effort to prevent any grout leaks, and successfully, because the rot under the sink attests to much leaking in the now distant past. Will have to make repairs under there sometime, but at least it's dry now.

Dan

[Al Bundy]

Dan_Musicant wrote in news: [e-mail]:

The HD here sells an all plastic one if you wanna go cheap. Whole thing $6 here. UPC 042805006009

Like pope dope. In a little tube like the little travel tubes of toothpaste. Since you seem to go to HD, it's where the pipe dope and plastic pipe cement is...here anyway.