Ok, a watt is a watt. But, aren't the envelopes radically different for the same wattage in typical consumer applications? And that leads to higher bulb surface temperatures for halogen. First hit on wikipedia talks about how the hotter surface temperature is required for the halogen cycle to work.
Yes and no. There are "naked" halogen bulbs that do get quite hot but they're really no big deal if you take some small precautions. There are also halogen bulbs that have identical envelopes to those of standard incandescent bulbs. They come in the standard A series envelopes, reflector spots and floods, and many other standard shapes, intended as "tungsten" replacements. The light from these is superior to standard bulbs.
Sure they do, but we're talking about a home user replacing bulbs he can get a home depot at competitive prices. You tend to take a fringe view and beat people over the head with it.
Based on watching this group for a while, I'd have to say that a lot of what you say is technically correct, but irrelevant and even harmful in the context being discussed.
The clueless asking questions don't have the knowledge or experience to interpret what you say. If they did, they wouldn't have asked the question in the first place. In a practical home situation with lamps you bought from Ikea, the risk of burning your house down is greater with halogens. "Utter nonsense" gives the WRONG IMPRESSION.
Some of us think in the context of the original posting.
Halogen sockets often are much hotter, prone to failure. Wire insulation hardens, breaks off, and the wire often breaks at crimps. Screw types are usually smaller footprint causing more heat at the socket. The little push in sockets also loose contact tension from heat. I've fixed Or replaced so many equipment types over the years.
I have kitchen pot lights. I use the smaller halogen screw lamps with the smaller footprint. They work great with dimmer, and I rarely use at full intensity. Probably only 40 watts each.
Greg
and you get even more light when your house burns down
Then the typical LED recessed light that one buys should have specs and install instructions that say airflow past some heatsink is required. Yet there are plenty of them from the major manufacturers where:
A - They are specifically sealed and certified to be airtight between the living space and the attic. That is a major advantage of LEDs, that you don't have hot air in the winter and cold air in the summer leaking into the attic, cathedral ceiling, etc.
B - The housing is rated for direct contact with insulation, you can cover it with insulation.
I have yet to see one talk about required minimum airflow. Perhaps you could provide the spec sheet or install instructions that say that.
Heatsinks, etc WITHIN the light are involved. Maybe they rely on airflow within the fixture itself too. But it doesn't require airflow past the fixture to keep it from overheating. Good grief. Typical fixture is only
15W in a 5" fixture, so there isn't very much heat to deal with.
Like someone else said, I find it interesting that you say you have 85 recessed lights in one house. Must be one hell of a big house. In any case, I would not convert all of them to LED at once. What's the rush? I'd try converting to LEDs in one room and try them out. And why do you need an electrician? There are retrofit kits that fit the common recessed fixtures. Most of them are just a new light/trim piece with a wire that has a screw connector that goes into the existing bulb socket. You can buy them for $25 and put them in yourself. Buy one and see how you like the light. They come in different color ranges and you may need to find the color you like.
Theoretically LEDS pay for themselves because they last for a very long time. But CFLs were sold on that basis too and the experiences I had with them was that many didn't last long at all. When LED were $75, they only made sense for special applications. Now that they are down to $25, they are worth taking a look. One really nice feature is that for recessed lights with an attic, cathedral ceiling, etc above, there are airtight ones available, so there is no air leakage from the living space. And with a cathedral ceiling, there is room for insulation around and above them, so you don't have a square foot of uninsulated ceiling.
So, how many house fires have been caused by excess heat from halogen bulbs? I'd like to quantify the risk.
Which is much more than you can say for fluorescent light. It offends my eyes.
Cindy Hamilton
Hi Cindy,
I don't have any specific information.
If you are going to use them, make sure they are installed in a heat resistant socket (porcelain?). Make sure they have room to breath to wick the heat away. Make sure the wiring is new so the insulation won't degrade from the heat. I personally wouldn't use them.
They sure do look pretty.
Try a Satco 5000K bulb. Should get rid of the flicker that hurts your eyes and match the color intensity of the halogen. Couldn't hurt to try one. A lot safer too. And, unlike the rest of those lying bulbs, the Satcos are actually long lived.
-T
And make sure there is nothing flammable near them, such as a lamp shade! As I said, I would not personally own one.
So, then you're just spewing opinion devoid of fact. You claim to be an electrical engineer? Then you should know that a watt is a watt. And whether it's a halogen or regular incandescent, 95% or so of the energy is converted to heat. Meaning that halogens are going to generate about the same amount of heat as a regular incandescent. Now depending on the form factor, a halogen bulb could have a hotter surface temp. But if for example you replace the same form factor and wattage light bulb with a halogen, I don't see where all the added and allegedly dangerous heat is coming from.
More FUD. Millions of people are using them. I have a variety of them here in my house. And if they were starting fires, you would think we's all have heard many reports of them starting fires, they would be banned, etc.
Then my point stands. Halogen bulbs get no hotter than standard "tungsten" bulbs.
Utter nonsense.
I did. You simply can't read.
+1, except in certain circumstances. Tubes are great in workplaces. CFLs are bad anywhere (though sometimes a reasonable tradeoff).
Trader4,
Do you drive with your arm outstretch and your middle finger extended?
Here you go:
From the above search:
Halogen lights are popular as they are very effective, but their greatest disadvantage is that they emit an extraordinary amount of heat. A standard 75-watt light bulb operates at about 260 degrees Fahrenheit, while a 300-watt halogen light bulb can reach temperatures of up to 970 degrees Fahrenheit.
And another from the above search:
TUNGSTEN HALOGEN AND INCANDESCENT LAMPS
DANGER! Halogen lamps operate at extremely high temperatures that can cause serious physical injuries and property damage.
Only use Halogen lamps in Halogen-approved fixtures. Fixtures should fully contain any parts of the Halogen lamp upon the event of a lamp burst.
Do not use Halogen lamps in close proximity of paper, cloth or other combustible materials that can cause a fire hazard.
Lamps are very fragile. Do not drop, crush, bend or shake them. Vibration or impact will cause filament breakage and short lamp life.
Do not touch the Halogen bulb surface or inside reflectors with your bare hands. Oils from skin can lead to breakage or shorten the life of the lamp. Use clean gloves or lint-free cloth for installation and removal.
Clean any dirt, oil, or lint away from the lamp with alcohol and a lint-free cloth or tissue. Any foreign particles or materials on the bulb surface can cause hot spots on the bulb and result in lamp failure.
Never touch the lamp when it is on, or soon after it has been turned off, as it is hot and may cause serious burns.
Always turn off the electrical power before inserting, removing, or cleaning the lamp.
Affix the lamp securely in the socket. Improper installations will cause electrical arcing, overheating and short life to lamp and socket. Replace lamp holders and sockets when necessary.
Keep the temperature of the Halogen lamp seal below 350° C. Keep the temperature of the Halogen bulb wall above 250° C. Keep the temperature of the Halogen lamp bulb wall below 800° C.
Make sure lamps of specified wattage and voltage are only used in appropriately rated fixtures. Unspecified use will lead to short lamp life, breakage and overheating of fixture.
Lamps should not be operated beyond the total rated voltage. Avoid the use of dimmers that may drive your lamp over its rated voltage.
Operate the lamp only in the indicated burn position. Failure to do so will lead to overheating and shortened lamp life.
Use an external fuse when required.
Do not allow one lamp to directly expose another. This may lead to overheating and shortened lamp life.
I will give you a hint. A watt is indeed a watt. How that watt gets out is a whole 'nother interesting story. A single glowing wire suspended in a vacuum shucks energy in a different manner than a super heated gas inside a double bulb. The glowing wire would tend to shuck it more by radiation and less by convection. A super heated gas, due to the containment it is confined to, would tend to shuck far more by convection. That is why you need the porcelain fixture and why I do not have them in my house. Paper light on fire at 260C and Halogen gases can rise to 2,500°C and the bulb up to 500°C. Source:
And another hint: incandescent lamp wire glow "yellow" (about
2300 Kelvin), where super heated halogen gases glow "white" (about 5000 to 6500 Kelvin). The difference in the kelvin rating is why Halogen lamps look so pretty. And why they run a hell of a lot hotter.Now put your middle finger away and act like a gentleman.
-T
The only sources I see on that search are talking about torchere type halogen floor lamps. They are not talking about replacing
50W flood, or the typical incandescent with an equivalent wattage and design halogen bulb, which is what the thread is about. The form factors of those are very different than the small, narrow tube type bulb used in torchere lamps. If you let a drape dangel into a torchere, it can touch the small glass tube bulb. Replace a typical 100W incandescent bulb and there is no way that is possible. The halogen component is inside an outter glass shell.And what credibility exactly does some randome website have? I didn't even see anything that says who's behind it. But if you read what they say, most of it is common sense, like let the bulb cool off before you remove it. They also don't seem to understand the difference between heat and temperature.
Looks like typical manufacturers warnings that you find on many products. Doesn't say they are burning houses down when you replace your 50W incandescent flood with a 50W halogen flood.
Wow, who would have thought that?
Good that you now recogize the difference between heat and temperature.
A single
The halogen replacements we're talking about are sealed inside a glass envelope.
Show us a cite that says you need a porecelain fixture to replace a typical 100 W incandescent with a halogen equivalent.
Paper light on fire at 260C and Halogen
ce:
If you're gonna look at the temp of the gas, then what's the temp of a tungsten filament if you touch that, or let it touch your drapes? More fud.
Again confusing the temp of an internal component that you can't touch with the heat emitted from the bulb enclosure.
Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Where are all those fire reports from 50W halogens like the OP is talking about using because they were not put in porcelain sockets? If they are half as unsafe as you claim, why are they still being sold. So far, in all the above, the only thing that makes sense is the NY Times talking about fire hazard of torch style halogens. That does make sense because they use a very different halogen bulb from what you have in an incandescent replacement style. Further the bulb is in an upward facing dish, making it easy for a curtain, etc to get in it, if you're careless enough to let that happen. I've had several of those operating for 35 years here and no fires.
Make sure you have a good fire extinguisher. A really good idea even if you don't use halogens.
Good grief, yet another fappin' Cracker Jax engineer. You're completely clueless.
And you are an ass hole and are kill filed
Of course. A crappy engineer gets pissed when he's told what a crappy engineer he is. The truth often hurts.
Kr-what is pretty close to that point, here, too.
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