I hired the AC tech to replace my AC system which included a new condenser unit outside and a new handler up in the attic along with new drain line and drain pan etc...The old air handler had to be removed and disposed of.
The AC tech told me the new air handler will fit in the same space. I specifically told him to make sure the unit he orders will fit and I don't want to have to cut any rafters, and when they were done, they cut two of my rafters out!!! I asked him and he said it had to be done or else it wouldn't fit. So I had to figure out a way to fix what he did.
This is what the two members used to look like, the piece that goes from the joist to the roof rafter. See the image:
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In order to fix this, I remove the left over pieces he cut from the bottom and top connection. Took me a long time because there are plates with hundreds of teeth biting into several pieces of framing at the same time, there was not enough elbow room to work or get leverage so it took me a long time. Once I got them out, I replaced them with a piece going from the bottom to the top only at a steeper angle, then I ran another piece from there to the high point. So basically replacing one member with two. Here are the photos:
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Will this work? I think it should but want to double check.
Also, the metal piece the bites into these wood took a long time to pull out, a few pieces I cannot pull out but managed to "bend" backwards to let loose the piece of wood. Is there a tool to remove these metal plates? I was up there almost 4 hours just prying the plates out.
I'm not a structural engineer, but it looks OK to me. Those things are over engineered because idiots like your AC guys will cut them once in a while but moving the load to a different point should not be a problem. I'd have done it pretty much the same way, give or take an inch.
You might want to apply generous plywood gussets using screws and liquid nails to both sides of those joints where those new webs meet the rafters to replace the nail plates you removed.
When I worked on a truss shop we used a tool similar to this to peel off gang nail plates when necessary.
"MiamiCuse" wrote in news:xZWdnVPd6NsnOEDVnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@dsli.com:
What he has done is nothing but bad news. If I were buying your house I would ask for a stamped PE's (professional Engineer) statement that says the repair is approved. If I were a home inspector, in my report to the potential buyer it would say something to the effect of "Trusses have been modified. Request from buyer a stamped copy of PE's statement approving changes/modifications".
Somewhere along the line that's gonna happen to some seller of that house. It's just a matter of who is holding the bag. As a buyer, I don't wanna be the one.
You cannot just change trusses. Every piece of a truss has an effect on the others. Most trusses can be repaired but before anything you have to have a PE's statement approving it. This is not just some PITA rule. The weight of the entire roof and anything that's ever on it is on those trusses and transfered to the outer walls. Repairs and changes are often done with gussets. The geometry, specs, placement and even screw spacing and type are part of the PE's statement.
The reason those plates are hard to pull out is so that they don't pull out. They are put in by hydraulic presses to apply an even calculated pressure that is part of the overall geometry of stresses and loads of the truss. Even the lumber used is part of the calculation, i.e, SYP, SPF, No 1,2 or 3, cord & web widths.
What you have done may be fine but you will need to show many buyers a PE's statemnt that says so...and any buyer that gets a home inspection. Personally, I would go after the bastard for altering a significant structural component of your home. They may or may not have needed a permit to do the HVAC work but I bet a permit is required to modify trusses. Did they get one? The the inspector sign off on it?
As a buyer I might hear yadda yadda yadda from the seller and much of it good convincing info. When the seller was done I'd say, "Great! Show me the approved PE's statement stamped".
Like he said. Read what he wrote again so it sinks in.
Your AC guy bent you over a chair and had his way with you. You can't arbitrarily change truss members. Truss connections are at least as important as the truss member sizes. That diagonal element may be called on to take compression or _tension_ loads. What you did does nothing for tension loads. Another poster recommended plywood gussets, and that would be a big help if done correctly, but you are Rube Goldberging a solution to an equation you don't understand.
You have _no_ choice but to have an engineer design the solution and then build what he indicates and have him sign off. That could easily cost as much as your AC guy's profit - or more.
Your changes are probably OK, but you definitely need to replace the gusset plates. I recommend you have a structural engineer take a look.
The official position of our Habitat for Humanity crew chiefs is that if you do anything to the truss, you need an engineer to recertify it--so don't do anything to a truss. The real problem comes when you fail the inspection.
I don't know how things work where you are, but around here you could have trouble selling your house. The buyer's inspector might flag the changes, then the buyer's mortgage or insurance company could refuse to accept the house without either changes or engineer certification.
The engineer's bill, and the bill from the carpenter who fixes the problem (even if that's you), should go to the AC company.
I'd have to agree with Red Green's & Rico's comments ....
have a PE bless your fix (with any necessary mods) or design an alternative.
My guess it will be plywood gussets & staples.
btw the reason those truss plates are hard to remove is that they're not intended to be removed.....there is no tool. I would use a 4" grinder with really coarse sanding disk to burn off the plates and then just plywood gusset over the joint.
Truss members are meant to meet at a single point of action so that member loads are dominately axial in nature.
I'm no engineer, but the seat of my pants says you did okay. There was no need to remove the nailer plates- if they got in the way, all you needed to do was trim them with a saber saw and a metal blade. Just for giggles, I'd gusset your new joints with metal or even plywood plates, screwed into place. That will help keep the joints tight when the roof system flexes in high wind. The big-box, in the deck and framing aisle, sells all sorts of pre-made brace plates that would work.
And as a seller, I'd say "well, then Mister, find yourself another house because I'm not hiring a PE or a structural engineer just to reduce your stomach butterflies".
Since when in our society do we always need such ironclad guarantees, stamped with approval?
How the hell did they ever manage to build houses before structural engineers existed? Give me a break...
I raised the roof of a house using 26 ft long rafters to give a clear span with a 16 ft cathedral ceiling in one part and designed my own trusses in another. I simply used code books and books on architectural engineering standards, did the simple math and had it built, but also doing much of the work myself.
The City's building inspector approved my drawings, signed off on the inspections and it passed with flying colors. When in doubt, I simply went up one extra lumber size over what the simple match dictated. That was done in 1988 and I still own the house and it survived a tornado that shook the entire building.
It ain't rocket science and no structural enineer is necessary to do such a simple repair. The orginal poster has done a perfectly satisfactory job.
Jeez, it's amazing that Monticello is still standing. Jefferson wasn't a structural engineer...
You're right, it isn't that hard, but consider: * Most people couldn't find the resources you did. You're exceptional. * It's easy to solve the problem by overengineering the truss, but a manufacturer won't do that. They'll build the truss exactly to the minimum specification to save on cost. I've worked in factories where they worried about reducing the time to perform a step by two seconds in order to save a penny or two. * The legal environment has changed. Jefferson probably didn't even
*have* a building code. * You might have trouble selling a house with a structural problem. It's the AC doofus' fault. Make him fix it, and do it so no one could ever complain about the solution. If nothing else, the doofus needs to be taught to do what the customer tells him to do.
yeah get professional structural engineer do exactly what they oirder, get it inspected, and take HVAC hack to small claims court. it will discourage him from ever doing this again.
when it couldnt fit he should of asked before cutting structural parts........
say heres the amount you owe, either ay or see you in court.
In this economy, where the economy is in dire trouble, and there is a glut of homes for sale - many going begging, you're suggesting turning away a potential buyer because of several hundred dollars that will most likely (if the OP has any common sense at all) come out of the AC guy's pocket.
Forgetting the financial and concentrating on the structural, do you really expect a buyer, even one as can-do as yourself, to walk into such a house and not have any questions about the repair, who did it, whether it was done right, etc.? Are you suggesting that someone can simply eyeball a truss and tell if the connections and members are correctly sized?
Buying the house is not entirely up to you unless you're paying cash. A bank will almost certainly require an inspection and any inspector worth his salt will red flag such an obvious modification to an engineered truss.
You can take umbrage at the unfairness of the situation - it just won't change it.
You can take umbrage at the unfairness of the situation - it just won't change it.
R
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Really? Never had a bank, insurance, or mortgage company ask for inspection, And I'd never pay for a home inspector because they miss too many things.
I'd have to agree with Red Green's & Rico's comments ....
have a PE bless your fix (with any necessary mods) or design an alternative.
My guess it will be plywood gussets & staples.
btw the reason those truss plates are hard to remove is that they're not intended to be removed.....there is no tool. I would use a 4" grinder with really coarse sanding disk to burn off the plates and then just plywood gusset over the joint.
Truss members are meant to meet at a single point of action so that member loads are dominately axial in nature.
cheers Bob
OK, I have to dig out some old structures book and study them. I did have some classes on trusses, plates and shells in college, long time ago and don't remember anything.
Monday, I will walk next door to the bridge department and ask those PhD what I need to do.
I told him to leave along ANY wood framing, ANY - trusses, rafters, joists, bottom plates etc...I said the only thing he can cut is sheet rock and furring strips for the ceiling sheet rock.
And resorcinol glue. The repair in the pictures looks good to me, but you should have put a jack under the top member(looks like a rafter) to take some of the weight of the roof while you replaced the brace -- so the brace is preloaded like on the unmolested trusses. I've had to repair a defective truss and that's how I did it before I nailed/glued the sister boards. This was just a garage, but I did contact the truss maker and one of their P.E. sent me some paperwork. I did the same thing to fix broken rafters in a big tool shed, but that wasn't a truss so the certification didn't matter.
Two consecutive trusses?? I'd be really pissed. You need to get an engineer (or maybe an architect can do it but I doubt it) to certify the modification and you'll be fine. Send the bill to the asshat who cut them.
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