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On 09/15/2014 03:24 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Christians believe differently than Mormons. Duh!
If you are trying for a convert, it would be better if you expended your energy elsewhere. I was presented both Christianity and Mormonism as a kid. I chose the Christian path.
I don't mind discussing our differences, or explaining Christian beliefs with anyone who asks. I am rather fond of Christianity. I even don't mind if other share theirs with me. I see it as a sign of friendship that someone would want to share with me something that has great meaning in their life.
What is important is that we be respectful of each other. And you are being really disrespectful to Christians by calling yourself a Christian when you are not. The non-virgin birth of Jesus especially makes our skin crawl.
And, please feel free to tell any Christian that claims to be a Mormon or a Jew or a Hindu or a Muslim that he is being disrespectful as well.
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On 09/16/2014 12:23 AM, Todd wrote:

First, there is no proof God exists.
Second, if a deity does exist, you have no proof which religion is the official religion.
And until you have real proof, you are just deluding yourself.
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On 9/16/2014 4:53 AM, God wrote:

. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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On 09/16/2014 01:53 AM, God wrote:

Perhaps. Perhaps not.
What would you accept as proof?
Science would not be a good choice and religion and science do not mix. Plus, scientific truths in are always changing: in science, todays truths are always tomorrows falsehood.
Just out of curiosity, do you think Christian believers were just presented some beautiful intellectual argument that changed our minds? 2 + 2 = 4, so god exists?
-T
By the way, here is something for you to ponder. Even if you do not believe in god, you want believers around you. This is how John Adams put it:
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
So be nice to those believers around you.
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On 09/16/2014 01:52 PM, Todd wrote:

Proof doesn't exist. I don;t expect "true believers" to ever realize this.

You might notice that scientific truth changes in response to new knowledge. "religious truth" is stuck at what people thought thousands of years ago.

I think no such thing happened. It seems likely that "religious belief" snuck in with parental love before the person was old enough to know what was happening. That is "religion" is a disease acquired in childhood.

I want moral people around me. Belief in God is an impediment, which many manage to overcome enough to be moral.

I wonder how he defined "religion". Religion is a means of getting people together. As such, it is appropriate there.
Theistic (God believing) religion has nothing to do with morals, but with slavery. Most believers are moral in SPITE of the belief.

So be nice to those PEOPLE around you, regardless of belief.
--
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There's no proof he doesn't, either.

And there's also no proof which aren't.

And so may you be. There's no way of telling either way, is there?
Born-agains and atheists stand on precisely the same ground.
Hey, you want a good read? Try Robert A. Heinlein's "Job: A Comedy of Justice". It's Heinlein's entertaining take on the Biblical story.
--
Tegger

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On 09/16/2014 08:38 PM, Tegger wrote:

That is exactly my point! A deity may or may not exist. There is no proof either way. What I do know is that the bible-thumpers use scare tactics. They'll try to scare you into believing you'll go to hell for eternity if you don't believe them.
On the other hand, true scientists propose explanations for observable phenomena. I've never had a scientist tell me I'll roast in Hell for eternity if I don't believe a proposed hypothesis.
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On 09/17/2014 01:58 AM, God wrote:

Some do. Most don't. Mine certainly does not. The gentleness of my church is what attracted me to in the first place -- some of the sweetest people on the face of this earth.
And I do know some of these bible thumpers you speak of. They can be annoying at times. Once you get to know them, they are okay people. They are just being overly exuberant trying to share something important in their lives with you. And that is a true act of friendship. They could learn some tact though.
Here is how to handle them when they start to get annoying. Just ask them to pray for you. They will be delighted. And they will usually stop hitting you over the head with the bible. If they start again, ask them if they remembered to pray for you.
By the way, my church believes that all truly good people will go to heaven. We have no idea what the Lord's plan is for each of us or how he works through us. Here is a ti (without hitting you over the head with a nerf bible so it won't hurt to much), it has a lot to do with how you treat others.

And the explanations keep changing. That is the nature of science. Use any caloric to heat your coffee this morning? Science and religion don't mix.
I just read somewhere that they have a new explanation for volcanoes. In science, today's truths are always tomorrow's falsehoods. Fun explanation by the way.

True. But only a real scientist. On the other hand, there are currently idealogical based scientists (yes, not real scientists) hawking there own doom and gloom garbage about the oceans rising, the earth boiling, etc..
When confronted on their flimsy research or when they are frequently caught cheating, they use religious extremist terms on you, such as "denier". Much worse than any bible thumper. Just as religious though, as they accept their premises as axioms.
Better to keep religion and science apart. One explains the observable; the other explains the unobservable. The two will never meet.
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On 09/15/2014 11:23 PM, Todd wrote:
[snip]

I believe in being respectful to PEOPLE. That's different than with supernatural BS (God, etc...), which obviously DOESN'T deserve respect.
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On 09/16/2014 10:51 AM, sam E wrote:

Just curious where you draw your line.
Does your respect for people also include those people who do believe in God no matter how weird you think their belief is?
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On 09/16/2014 01:37 PM, Todd wrote:
[snip]

Sure I do. Most Believers I know are good people.
I don't have anything against them, just those who are continually PUSHING that stuff at me.
--
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On 09/17/2014 08:59 AM, notX wrote:

Okay. I see. It gets annoying after a bit. They are just trying to share something important in their lives with you. It is tactless friendship.
Religion is suppose to be caught not taught. They are suppose to attract you to it by the way they live their lives. (I was originally attracted to my church by their gentleness and a push from the Holy Spirit.)
Here is what to do when they get annoying. Just ask them to pray for you. If that doesn't work, ask them again if they remembered to pray for you.
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On 9/17/2014 11:59 AM, notX wrote:

I hear you. As a Bible believing Christian, I get my share of people (including on this list) who want to try and use rolled up news papers and endless writing to try and beat me into saying things I don't believe. Or try to change my beliefs by rudeness and badgering.
--
.
Christopher A. Young
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On 09/17/2014 02:54 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Stormin',
Bull shit. You do not believe what is in the bible or you would repent your false gods. Mormonism turns the Bible on its head. And I have provided you lots of examples of that.
What you believe with your multiple gods that had to walk the earth to be elevated to god status is not even remotely Christian. Only the names are reused.
This doesn't mean you are not a nice guy or that you are not going to heaven. It only means that you do not believe as Christians. And that your are grievously mistaken on what it means to be a Christian. It is okay to be a Mormon.
Do not call yourself what you are not. To be a Christian, you have to REMOTELY believe in *at least some* of what Christians believe.
A soap opera cast of gods DISQUALIFIES YOU. Turning the Bible on its head DISQUALIFIES YOU. Not believing the Nicaean Creed DISQUALIFIES YOU.
Christians have died hideous death as martyrs for refusing to worship polytheistic gods very similar to your polytheistic gods: human failings, sex with humans, yada, yada, yada.
An what you believe about the non-virgin birth is disgusting to Christians.
Next time you think you are a Christian, remember the screams of the martyrs and what they died for. And get some self respect.
-T
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On 9/16/2014 1:51 PM, sam E wrote:

are not Christian" thing.
https://www.lds.org/topics/christians?lang=eng
Are Mormons Christian?
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unequivocally affirm themselves to be Christians. They worship God the Eternal Father in the name of Jesus Christ. When asked what the Latter-day Saints believe, Joseph Smith put Christ at the center: “The fundamental principles of our religion is the testimony of the apostles and prophets concerning Jesus Christ, ‘that he died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended up into heaven;’ and all other things are only appendages to these, which pertain to our religion.”1 The modern-day Quorum of the Twelve Apostles reaffirmed that testimony when they proclaimed, “Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. … His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come.”2
In recent decades, however, some have claimed that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a Christian church. The most oft-used reasons are the following:
Latter-day Saints do not accept the creeds, confessions, and formulations of post–New Testament Christianity. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not descend through the historical line of traditional Christianity. That is, Latter-day Saints are not Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant. Latter-day Saints do not believe scripture consists of the Holy Bible alone but have an expanded canon of scripture that includes the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.
Each of these is examined below.
Latter-day Saints Do Not Accept the Creeds of Post–New Testament Christianity
Scholars have long acknowledged that the view of God held by the earliest Christians changed dramatically over the course of centuries. Early Christian views of God were more personal, more anthropomorphic, and less abstract than those that emerged later from the creeds written over the next several hundred years. The key ideological shift that began in the second century A.D., after the loss of apostolic authority, resulted from a conceptual merger of Christian doctrine with Greek philosophy.3
Latter-day Saints believe the melding of early Christian theology with Greek philosophy was a grave error. Chief among the doctrines lost in this process was the nature of the Godhead. The true nature of God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. As a consequence, Latter-day Saints hold that God the Father is an embodied being, a belief consistent with the attributes ascribed to God by many early Christians.4 This Latter-day Saint belief differs from the post-New Testament creeds.
Whatever the doctrinal differences that exist between the Latter-day Saints and members of other Christian religions, the roles Latter-day Saints ascribe to members of the Godhead largely correspond with the views of others in the Christian world. Latter-day Saints believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and all-loving, and they pray to Him in the name of Jesus Christ. They acknowledge the Father as the ultimate object of their worship, the Son as Lord and Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit as the messenger and revealer of the Father and the Son. In short, Latter-day Saints do not accept the post-New-Testament creeds yet rely deeply on each member of the Godhead in their daily religious devotion and worship, as did the early Christians.
Latter-day Saints Believe in a Restored Christianity
Another premise used in arguing that Latter-day Saints are not Christians is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not descend from the traditional line of today’s Christian churches: Latter-day Saints are not Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant. Latter-day Saints believe that by the ministering of angels to Joseph Smith priesthood authority to act in God's name was returned or brought back to earth. This is the “restored,” not a “reformed,” church of Jesus Christ. The Latter-day Saint belief in a restored Christianity helps explain why so many Latter-day Saints, from the 1830s to the present, have converted from other Christian denominations. These converts did not, and do not, perceive themselves as leaving the Christian fold; they are simply grateful to learn about and become part of the restored Church of Jesus Christ, which they believe offers the fulness of the Lord’s gospel, a more complete and rich Christian church—spiritually, organizationally, and doctrinally.
Members of creedal churches often mistakenly assume that all Christians have always agreed and must agree on a historically static, monolithic collection of beliefs. As many scholars have acknowledged, however, Christians have vigorously disagreed about virtually every issue of theology and practice through the centuries, leading to the creation of a multitude of Christian denominations.5 Although the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints differs from that of the many creedal Christian churches, it is consistent with early Christianity. One who sincerely loves, worships, and follows Christ should be free to claim his or her understanding of the doctrine according to the dictates of his or her conscience without being branded as non-Christian.
Latter-day Saints Believe in an Open Canon
A third justification argued to label Latter-day Saints as non-Christian has to do with their belief in an open scriptural canon. For those making this argument, to be a Christian means to assent to the principle of sola scriptura, or the self-sufficiency of the Bible. But to claim that the Bible is the sole and final word of God—more specifically, the final written word of God—is to claim more for the Bible than it claims for itself. Nowhere does the Bible proclaim that all revelations from God would be gathered into a single volume to be forever closed and that no further scriptural revelation could be received.6
Moreover, not all Christian churches are certain that Christianity must be defined by commitment to a closed canon.7 In truth, the argument for exclusion by closed canon appears to be used selectively to exclude the Latter-day Saints from being called Christian. No branch of Christianity limits itself entirely to the biblical text in making doctrinal decisions and in applying biblical principles. Roman Catholics, for example, turn to church tradition and the magisterium (meaning teachers, including popes and councils) for answers. Protestants, particularly evangelicals, turn to linguists and scripture scholars for their answers, as well as to post–New Testament church councils and creeds. For many Christians, these councils and creeds are every bit as canonical as the Bible itself. To establish doctrine and to understand the biblical text, Latter-day Saints turn to living prophets and to additional books of scripture—the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price.
Together with the Old and New Testaments, the Book of Mormon supports an unequivocal testimony of Jesus Christ. One passage says that the Book of Mormon “shall establish the truth” of the Bible “and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.”8 In its more than six thousand verses, the Book of Mormon refers to Jesus Christ almost four thousand times and by over one hundred different names: “Jehovah,” “Immanuel,” “Holy Messiah,” “Lamb of God,” “Redeemer of Israel,” and so on.9 The Book of Mormon is indeed “Another Testament of Jesus Christ,” as its title page proclaims.
Conclusion
Converts across the world continue to join The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in part because of its doctrinal and spiritual distinctiveness. That distinctiveness flows from the knowledge restored to this earth, together with the power of the Holy Ghost present in the Church because of restored priesthood authority, keys, ordinances, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The fruits of the restored gospel are evident in the lives of its faithful members.
While members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have no desire to compromise the distinctiveness of the restored Church of Jesus Christ, they wish to work together with other Christians—and people of all faiths—to recognize and remedy many of the moral and family issues faced by society. The Christian conversation is richer for what the Latter-day Saints bring to the table. There is no good reason for Christian faiths to ostracize each other when there has never been more urgent need for unity in proclaiming the divinity and teachings of Jesus Christ. .
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On 09/16/2014 01:04 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Stormin',
For the first four hundred year of Christian existence, the Romans hunted us down and murdered us in the most horrific of manners. The Romans often tortured us to death because we refused to worship their polytheistic gods: gods with humans failing, just like yours.
The Soviets murders us by the hundreds of millions for refusing to renounce our faith.
We have shed volumes of blood beyond imagination for the right to call ourselves "Christian". You really can not comprehend just how vile it is to have you come along with your false gods, gods with human failings, sex with gods, non-virgin birth, etc. and call yourself Christian. You are not a Christian. You do not believe what Christians believe. Please stop calling yourself one.
-T
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On 09/13/2014 06:46 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Hi Stormin',
That part I can figure out. As I am suppose to be respectful of other's religions, I have gone through great pains to to make sure I quotes sources from Mormon sites, such as lds.org. I have taken great pains not to state non-Mormon's opinions as Mormon doctrine.
To this point, I thought I had succeeded in that. Apparently not. Please forgive me.
Did you honestly think I was threatening to hit you with a newspaper or anything else? Did you notice where we were when I cracked that joke? We were both in heaven. It is a Christian belief that all truly good people will get to heaven. I was including you in those good people, not threating to hit you.
By the way, it won't hurt my feeling one bit if you think I have misstated something and you correct me.
-T
If I had not made it abundantly apparent (making you heaven's repairman in humor), I sincerely appreciate your help with the refrigerator. My wife kept asking "what did Stormin' say?" You apparently have a fan club.
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On 9/14/2014 2:11 AM, Todd wrote:

Yes, it sounded like a threat. I missed the humor.
Interesting that someone wants to hear what I wrote.
. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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On 09/14/2014 04:53 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Dog, newspaper, indignant. Oh well, there will be time for more humor. The main point was where we both were (heaven) when the smacking was to happen. It was suppose to be a back handed compliment to you. You get use to having to explain your jokes and apparently, your compliments too.
Please tell me you didn't take me seriously about the Elvis suit either?

In more ways than you know.
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On 9/14/2014 3:41 PM, Todd wrote:

I'd been meaning to ask about the Elvis suit. Is that the required attire in "your" Heaven? Not sure LDS has mentioned that. Should I leave it in my will to be burried in one, or should I figure to find a second hand shop and buy one there? Maybe Elvis and Marilyn Monroe have been resurrected, and no longer need the suits?
--
.
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