Makes sense. For some reason, ethernet cables avoid using the center
These 3 pairs weren't in a row, so "center pair" here is meaningless.
It would mans something on a jack, but not this non-connected cable.
I never got to see the connections to the only jack installed when the
house was now. There were provisions for jacks in the bedrooms. Wire
was installed, but no jacks. I later added a couple of jacks, and used
an 8-ohm speaker to find the active pair.
Yeah? Well the center pins on an ethernet card (in a computer) are
shorted, for whatever THAT's worth.
Back in the dial-up days, I lost count of the times I would clear a hard
short trouble report by removing the RJ11 plug from the ethernet port in
the back of the computer and reconnect it into the nearby, internal
modem IN port.
Oh, yeah. :\\
For whatever reason, the customer unplugged the phone cord from the
computer's internal modem IN port. Then, probably fumbling around in
back where it's dark and without a good, solid view, they inserted the
plug into the ethernet port.
An RJ11 plug fits nicely into the 8-pin (usually ethernet) RJ45 jack.
Doing so places a short across the center pins of the phone cord and,
thusly, across the pair, effectively "killing" the phone line. Simply
unplugging the phone cord from the ethernet port/jack removed the short
and restored the customer's dialtone.
You're bound determined to justify it aren't you? What you showed is
not a RJ-11 jack which is what would be used in the home. If you plug
any residential phone into a jack such as you described, it will not
work from the yellow/green wires. It will work from the tip/ring pair
at pins 3 & 4 ONLY. You also left out pins; there are 8 on the wiring
you showed, which is shown incorrectly. Telephones do not come with
some wired for pins 3 & 4 and others wired for other pins: In fact,
very often the silver & gray telephone cables only consist of 2 actual
If you were to try to use the yellow/black for tip & ring, you would
have to terminate those wires in hte jack the phone connects to at the
normal positions in the box for the red/gree pair. so the yellow wire
would go where it says red and the black to where it says green.
If a telco wires in a 2-line system, they will not use 6-conductor
standard phone cable but will use 8 conductor instead, and 8 pin RJ
jacks vs the 6 pin RJ11 jacks. The specs dictate that so that, where
the wires are no longer twisted within the jacket of the cable, a
distance can be maintained between them to keep line to line crosstalk
I detest misinformation and especially when it comes from some moron who
guesses at what the rules and regs say and want to justify their own
existance by giving incorrect information. Whether you looked up "tip"
and "ring" or just think they were handy buzz words, they are very real
and have distinct meanings within the installations. You CAN connect
another line to the black/yellow pair, but then you'll have some phones
that don't work and need rewiring at the box, and a very good chance of
crosstalk between the two lines, especially since I doubt you would know
how to keep non-twisted sections short and the rest of the things any
novice installer would know.
If youwant the nitty gritty it exists in the CFR, Title 47, Part 68.
Go educate yourself or quit giving out misinformation that can cause
other people problems.
NOW the case is closed because I've no more food for you to troll on;
you're on your own.
Um. I didn't describe an R-11 jack at all, dunderhead. We are talking
about the WIRES. You also seem to think that the princess phones used
the yellow/black pair for lighting. That's essentially incorrect in
terms of this discussion, and you don/'t even know that much. The
princess phone used the yellow and black wires IN THE PHONE
forlighting power, but the wall connector was actually an adapter
configured as a shunt to prevent those wires from connecting to the
yello/black wiring in the wal, so it could still be used for that
second phone line in the kids rooml. Those wires, IN THE PHONE were
passed to a wall wart for power, and had ZERO to do with the telco
wiring in the wall.
Forget pins, pinhead. We are talking about house wiring for
telephones, not termination.
Only in the case of phone to wall cords that come packed with very
cheap phones, will you see 2 wire cables. Not germane to the
discussion at all. Google "red herring" for further information.
Yet that is EXACTLY what Telco's have done for decades to create a
second line for the kids bedroom upstairs using the existing wiring.
They don't homerun new wiring through a hosue for that, as it would be
almost as stupid as you.
Usually true, but not always. If the customer (usually the missus)
objected to 'that ugly thing', or if there was no outlet near the phone
drop, they would sometimes use the second pair for power, and put the
wall wart in the basement. After I was here a year, I banged my head on
an abandoned one hanging from its black and yellow wires under the
basement stairs. (the run had been cut off upstream.) Not the first time
I had seen a basement-mounted one.
No sexism involved or intended. I have no idea if it is genetics or how
they are raised, but in my experience, most women are MUCH fussier about
the appearance of their surroundings. The stereotypes arose for a
reason. Stuff most guys would shrug over irritates some women every time
they see it. It isn't that they are irrational, it is that they have
different priorities. Yes, there are exceptions, but that is why they
are called exceptions.
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:57:04 -0400, "TWayne"
I have had a second line in here, but the telco put in completely
different wiring for it. No cables are shared.
BTW, I later found out they charge over $200 for a little wiring, I
could easily have done myself. It's still take new wire, since the old
wiring has just 3 wires.
Maybe that should read "a telco _should_..." I have seen telco technicians
do all kinds of things in residential wiring, including using black/yellow
pairs, even green/black or red/yellow, or most any other permutation,
if it helps them avoid stringing a new wire at telephone co. expense.
I've seen them use wire nuts or twisted wires covered with electrical
tape to make their connections. Of course, when it is at the consumer's
expense, then they insist on doing everything up to standards. Please don't
generalize what is probably best practice to what is actually being
done the field.
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:27:51 +0000 (UTC),
firstname.lastname@example.orgNoOnSePsAtMar.org (Larry W) wrote:
Since the late 70s, all interior wiring belongs to the consumer. You
don't get anything at telco expense anymore. I also haven't seen an
interior phone wired by a real telco installer repairman in years
either. They are usually contractors who are basically clueless.
Back before the US v ATT decision if you had 2 lines, they ran 2
cables or a 25 pair if you were in an office that might get a call
director phone. BSP said you did not run 2 lines in one cable without
using twisted pair.
IF the telco installed a demarc box, that is true. However, at least
in my area, a lot of homes were missed. If the owner of such a home calls
for a line problem today, the telco is required to repair the line even
if it is inside the home, at least up to the junction blocks installed
by the phone company back in the ancient past. That is where you will find
the funky repairs I was describing. The technicians who make these
repairs may well be contractors for the telephone co, I don't know.
The telco won't install a demarc box on such a home without a lot of
persuasion. I guess their bean counters figure it is cheaper to just
repair the wiring, than to repair the wiring AND install the box.
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:45:15 +0000 (UTC),
email@example.comNoOnSePsAtMar.org (Larry W) wrote:
I don't know where you heard that but they can put that Dmark on the
first time you call them and walk away if their butt set works from
the Dmark. The next time you will pay a trip charge.
In real life I have not seen a house without a Dmark in almost 30
years. Maybe they are just more proactive in Florida
Is that still true today about no demarc? Where are you located? I'm
curious. I was under the impression if there wasn't a modern demarc
box, or if there wasn't one, they were required to install one. The new
demarcs also have the advantage of getting rid of the old 600V gas tubes
in favor of better components for the first-level surge protection.
What bothers me about that is that even if there is no demarc box,
the demarcation point is still considered to be the wall where the
wiring enters from outside and from that point on it's the customer's
responsibility. From my experience, knowledge the demarcation point can
never go inside a building's walls without special waivers etc. for
factories, etc. where outside access would be dangerous or impossible
for whatever reason. An example would be a prison but there are lots of
others. And they require 24/7 access to the demarcs.
There sure is a lot of half and misinformation here. Sheesh!
Since 1984, ALL telephone services (read: ALL) have had a demarc - a
That was - and still is - usually the Minimum Point of Presence or
Services installed or upgraded since about 1986 were done using a
Standard Network Interface Device (SNI or NID).
Remember the difference between a demarc and SNI/D.
When a premise visit is made, and no SNI/D is present, one is SUPPOSED
to be installed, at no extra charge to the customer, at that time.
Of course, if the weather is crappy, the work load is heavy, the
installer/repairdroid is in a bad mood or Jupiter is not in alignment
with Mars, the retrofit may be <ahem> deferred.
I am not sure that there is an OFFICIAL requiring entity (FCC,
whatever?) but I believe it is official PRACTICE of all telcos.
Old? ARGH!! :)
Listen, Sonny-boy: I UPGRADED many a protector from the old carbon
block protectors to the "new" gas tube variety. And the new stuff is NO
better than the old carbon blocks.
The "protector" (within the SNI/D if present) is not to provide
"first-level" surge protection. Instead, it is to keep your house from
burning down in the event of a near-direct lightning strike. Even the
modern stuff passes-through MOST transients. If it didn't, a phone
company would have HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of service call in the hours
after every thunder storm. No way.
Again, please remember the DISTINCT difference between a "demarc" and a
In a grandfathered situation (one with no SNI/D), the telco
responsibility extends INTO the premise (residential, commercial and
industrial) to - and including - the protector block.
Most installations have the protection within a few feet of the service
entrance. Those that extend great distances through the building BEFORE
being protected are rare. In those cases, an upgrade would include
installing the SNI/D at the entrance, thereby deregulating the rest of
the formerly telco-owned cable that extends through the building to the
former (divested) demarc. At that point, the protection is either
removed or disabled in favor of that provided at the entrance and new
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