really old phone lines

Page 1 of 6  

-------------------------------------
we just bought this house and want to put a phone in the kitchen..unfortunatly, the wires are bare....now we bought the jack and went to install it, and found that there are only three wires coming out of the hole, red, green and yellow..no black,,, how can we install this new jack to an old line that has only the three colored wires?
##-----------------------------------------------## Delivered via http://www.thestuccocompany.com/ Building Construction and Maintenance Forum Web and RSS access to your favorite newsgroup - alt.home.repair - 308527 messages and counting! ##-----------------------------------------------##
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Phones normally use just two wires. Hook up the red and green wires and forget the yellow.
Most of the time the phone wires will only have areound 12 volts on them. While the phone rings there is around 90 volts on the line. This voltage probably will not kill you but it sure can be painful.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

the yellow wire was for fancy lighted phones, look around and disconnect any old wall worts. I once found 5 of them plugged into a basement, in a 100 year old home. stuck up in the cieling. i was attempting to troubleshoot a DSL problem and got a tingle off the yellow wire.
since there were no lighted phones they were just a energy waste and perhaps a fire hazard.
Does your phone havve a NID outside? if it does unplug your home while connecting new jack, so you dont get a nasty but not life threatening shock while working on things, or at least take another phone off hook so line is busy, ringing is the nasty shock:(
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

So you might want to unplug the line at the box outside before working on the lines. Tony
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Rip out the old wires altogether and put in a new modular wire system, all the way to where the phone company wire enters the house.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
When the tel companies were deregulated, years ago. My Dad bought a little book on phone wiring. I remember it saying 48 volts DC when the phone is not in use "on hook" and about 5 volts DC when the phone is in use "off hook". 90 VAC ring sounds correct.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Aug 25, 10:54am, "Stormin Mormon"

Those voltage numbers are tyoical and correct. Most telephone sytems apply 48 volts DC to the line while waiting for a call to be made. When the phone is 'off hook' (in use) a small portion of that 48 is cross the phone, to activate the microphone in the handset etc. There are a few systems (not common in North America or the UK) that used 24 volts. (Worked in the industry 1952 to 1992).
As mentioned ringing is AC (Alternating current) typically at around 20 hertz (cycles per second) compared to ouir regular electric supply which is 60 hertz (In North America, but often 50 hertz elswhere!), at around 90 volts. That can give a bit of a bite but not likely harm you.
Assuming we are talking North American telephone systems; since it isn't clear where the OP is located?
Yes; use the red and green wires to hook up the phone. If the added phone does not ring (and you want it to) try hooking say the yellow from the phone itself (not the yellow wire from the wall) to red or the green and get somebody to call you. If that doesn't work you may have to make a jumper change inside the phone itself; depending on what model of the many thousands of phones that have been made!
Also make sure any jacks into which the phones plug are in nice dry locations. Outside walls are not good places (in a cold climate anyway) and some when they get damp can cause problems which can hold up a telephone line and/or trip ringing before one answers. If wiring is deteriorated replace it; nothing worse for both you and the telco. of a faulty telephone line and if a problem is inside the house can be costly in terms of a telco billing for trouble shooting it.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ralph Mowery wrote:

EEK! Wrong voltage! The nominal DC voltage on a phone line (on hook) is 48 volts DC. The (off hook) voltage can be anywhere between 6 and 12 volts DC. It's the (off hook) loop current in milliamperes that important. 15-36 ma is what I typically see. The US standard ring voltage is 90 volts AC at 20 Hz unless you're on a party line and the ringers will be of the type that are filtered to ring at different AC frequencies. The 48 volts can tingle but the 90 volts will definitely bite you. Don't strip a live phone line with your teeth because that's the exact moment that one of those damn telemarketers will decide to call. If you're looking for good info on phone systems and a source of parts, try http://www.sandman.com/ I've purchased phones and parts from the company for years. Oh, the green (tip) and red (ring) wires are the only ones you need for a standard single line telephone as was previously mentioned.
I'll bet you don't know what an "octothorp" is. It's a part of every pushbutton phone. *snicker*
[8~{} Uncle Monster
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:43:41 -0500, Uncle Monster
[snip]

Loop impedance is high (IIRC 400 ohms is normal). This causes the voltage to drop considerably when a load is applied (same as in a very old battery). The ring voltage is low impedance.

I thought is was an "octothorpe". Another name is "nanogram", although I don't see that much.
As to something else pushbutton-related, how about the "A" "B" "C" and "D" keys?

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Mark Lloyd wrote:

(snip)
Ask a hard one- that is the 4th row of buttons for an old AUTOVON phone. The TT standard was written around a 16-key (4x4) array. Somewhere in my collection, I have an old gray 2500 without the star and pound keys. Back in the 50s and 60s, the dividing line between ATT, WE, Bellcore, and Army Signal Corp, got rather fuzzy in spots. DoD was heavily involved with the post WWII design of the long-lines buildout. They even used to have a special area code assigned for the government emergency comms- now it is just a front door to a virtual network, with a single phone number assigned to it.
-- aem sends...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Mark Lloyd wrote:

octothorp / octothorpe / octathorp / octatherp
Also called a hash mark and various other things. It has an interesting history.

My understanding is that the letters were found on military phones connected to the AUTOVON phone systems that's no longer in use. I think phone company networks use them for network control and monitoring. I have some butt sets that have the letter keys and some actual phones somewhere in my collection. I was talking to someone today about my great uncle who was a lifer in The US Army Signal Corp. He joined when they were still using two tin cans and a string and I'll bet he was familiar with the AUTOVON system.
[8~{} Uncle Monster
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Heck, it's just the column 3 row 4 key (#)!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ralph Mowery wrote:

Multi-party service did NOT use "filtered ringers". I don't believe such a thing ever existed.
On two-party service, the ringing current is sent down one "side" or the other of the serving pair. At the station, the phone's ringer was connected to either the ring or tip side of the pair and the other side to ground. As mentioned earlier here, most station wiring was, for DECADES, three conductor. The third conductor was to provide a ground for partyline use.
A private line-wired set, "illegally" connected to a 2FR, would ring for ALL calls because its ringer was wired ACROSS the pair instead of as I described above.
Really OLD, multi-party installations? That was even more complicated.
A 4FR (four parties on the same cable pair): One party on the ring side was assigned a LONG ring, the other party was assigned two, short rings.
The same held true for the two parties whose phone ringers were wired to the TIP side of the pair.
This way, the phones would ring for only TWO parties of the four.
Then there's six and eight-party service. It's just more of the same with either three or four parties on one side of the pair and the others wired to the other side of the pair.
Then they got into different ring patterns such as we call today Custom or Distinctive Ringing: [long]; [short]; [short short]; [short long short]; [long short long]; and so on.
In other words, with eight parties (with properly wired telephones) on a single pair, only FOUR would hear the ringing of partymates.
I missed those days by a decade or two. I didn't miss much, methinks.
--
:)
JR

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Jim Redelfs wrote:

Hi, In this day and age who is using party lines? and if so every party line users phone has different selective ring tone? So how many different phones do we need then? My working days I never heard such thing. This phone is for Joesa', this phone is Smiths, so on and on?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Very few, I'm sure.
I suspect that most remaining multi-party lines in service belong to independent telcos and, even then, the stations are probably far away from the Central Office (farm lines, etc).

Not during the remaining years of my career. In fact, in "my" exchange (local call but just outside Omaha, Nebraska), there were only a handful of 2FRs and they were eliminated a few years before I retired.
The distinctive ringing I described was used mostly (exclusively?) in manual (non-dial) exchanges. It was the Operator, manually pushing the ringback key on her switchboard, that made the patterned ring.
Keep in mind this is some VERY old history. I am not sure that any automatic (but non-ESS) Central Office was capable of custom ringing. By then, however, most partyline arrangements had been reduced to TWO parties - and even they were "bridged" in the Central Office for convenience.

Just one: The Western Electric 500 (for example) ringer could be wired for Tip service or Ring service.
In a properly wired situation, given two-party service, neither party would hear ringing if the call was for their partymate. Not so with 4FR, 6FR and 8FR. It was the distinctive ring pattern on one side of the pair that informed the parties as for whom the call was intended.

That is correct.
In later days, as cable infrastructure caught up with and even exceeded the demand, 4FR, 6FR and 8FR services were regraded to two-party service and were bridged in the Central Office.
Diehard, remaining two-party subscribers were asked occasionally to regrade to private service. Some did, others hung on to the cheaper service. Here's where the devious "fun" began...
As two-party service faded, there were many 2FR-class subscribers bridged ALONE - they had NO partymate. Their partymate had either regraded to private service or had simply disconnected their service.
Those that hung on to their 2FR service did so, in part, because they "saw" (heard) NO reason to switch: They hadn't had to share their line with anyone in YEARS.
After canvassing the remaining 2FR subscribers in an exchange, the telco would REASSIGN a partymate to the remaining, formerly bridged alone subscribers.
Having to share a line again, most of these diehard 2FR subscribers would finally regrade to a private line. "Measured Service" would provide them with the same, lower price as their former partyline service but on a private line.
--
:)
JR

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 07:55:54 -0500, Jim Redelfs

I had party line service in Sanibel Florida in the 80s. It was a rental and they may still have it.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Did "tip" and "ring" have something to do with the (tiny) "central office", where the two women sat in front of this big board in which you actually connected the phone calls, by pulling out a wire-and-plug (from the caller's line?) and then stretched it across the board and plugged it into the callee's socket, thus "connecting" the call, and then maybe via crank or perhaps button, generated the "ringing" of the bell on the callee's phone?
David
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008 04:01:38 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@panix.com (David Combs) wrote:

Close, but no cigar. Tip and Ring are the parts of one of those 1/4 inch phone plugs they used. The plug is divided into two parts with an insulator separating them. There is the tip at the end, and the shaft portion is the "ring"
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

Actually the plug is divided into 3 parts. The shaft is the "sleeve". The "ring" is a ring between the tip and the shaft.
"Sleeve" is a 3rd wire used in the central office to determine if the line is busy. In the switchboard days, the operator could touch the tip of a patch cord to the shaft part of a jack and if they heard a click in their earphone the line was busy. On some boards it could light an adjacent bulb. "Sleeve" continued into the mechanical switching equipment, and there must be a digital equivalent in modern electronic switches.
--
bud--



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
bud-- wrote:

I'm told Western Electric manufactured the jacks at one plant and the mating plugs in another. This discouraged employees from taking home samples. I miss Ma Bell.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.