R22 vs. Puron

[Jeffrey J. Kosowsky]

When buying a new central air system, would you go with tried-and-true R22 or with Puron? If you go with R22, how much longer will it still be available (at reasonable cost)?

Thanks

[Nick Hull]

R22

Forever, maybe thru smugglers.

[Andy Asberry]

You will need to replace your unit before R-22 is no longer available.

[HeatMan]

The article on the wall behind my desk says in 2010 no new equipment using R22 will be manufactured. In 2020, R22 will no longer be made.

I do not know how the tax structures are set up.

[HeatMan]

Not.

longer available.

You can still buy R12, even now. It's taxed to death, therefore expensive as he//, but available.

I know this is above the OP's request.

I will go out in November or December of 2009 and buy the highest SEER of R22 equipment out there and sit on it. It will be for my house only. And in November or December of 2019, I'll buy a couple of drums of R22, just for my house only.

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

Well I'm a hvac contractor and if tomorrow morning my condenser unit burnt up and had to replace it. It would be a R-22 type that replaces it.

It should be 2015 to 2020 before you see the price of R-22 get up to a point where you might call it kind of pricey. Now Bush being elected which he is not very hard up on cutting the R-22 gas from service. These years as to getting up there on price maybe extended by 4 or more years. It sells for about $10.00 + a pound now and pricey it about $20.00 a pound. I will say this you will never see R-22 not aviliable at all but just pricey.

Now here is you a thought that will cure your worry about not having R-22 or it being too pricey to buy. Right not I / you can buy a freon to replace R-22 and it is a little better freon to replace R-22 with R-407-C . R-407-C is a drop in for R-22 and it is priced close to the price of R-22 right now and I think it will drop in price as the years go by and R-22 is phased out. Look at R-12 verses R-134-A which is the replacement for R-12 and Auto zones sells it to the public for $4.99 a can right now. R-12 was phased out and R-134-A took it's place at a very cheap price now days. R-22 is going to be the same story and R-407-C will replace it.

With 407-C being produced and all the tree huggers love it, R-22 phase out will be a non-event.

Now Puron / R-410-A / AZ-20 [ all the same thing ] is not all that bad of stuff but for right now and until r-22 is started to be cut out. There is only about

10% of hvac contractor that are set up to work on this freon in a system and finding a Puron freon contractor that is set up to work on them will be a problem with the too few dealer now set up to deal with it. I am half way set up to deal with it but as of right now there is NO Puron / R-410-A / AZ-20 system in my town of 10,000 pop. and why get wild about something that is not really in use right now.

Now one point that is still not known for sure yet. Puron / R-410-A / AZ-20 has been said to be the freon of the future but nothing is set in stone yet and NC-22 by the Japanese would or could be the norm because of no changes in the equipment and will be a drop in for R-22 system still in service and meets the new guide lines for a non-Ozone depleteing freon. Now R-407-C could be the Norm too , so watch out here as to what the norm is going to be in the future.

TURTLE

[Zypher]

Jeffery;

You'll find that the efficiency of Puron is higher. 13 SEER or higher. Soon, the minimum SEER (Seasonal Energy Efficiency Rating) will be a 13. (The DOE - Department of Energy is mandating the change by 2005) Manufacturers (Carrier) today have been offering Puron for about 7 -8 years now and are finding that it is just as reliable as R-22. But, the cost of the refrigerant is considerably higher today for R-410 (Puron) than R-22. So repairs later may cost more. (The equipment cost is about the same though - go figure.)

Replacement units for R-22 will continue to be available until 2010. I'd expect that R-22 refrigerant will still be available long after you and I won't care, but most of my customers are opting for R-410. It offers higher energy savings and reliability, is environmentally friendly, and not a refrigerant that will be disappearing soon.

The con side of all this is, the European Market is opting for R-407 instead of R-410. It seems the higher pressures are cause for concern. So it may be the U.S. will be alone in the use of R-410 down the road. Time will tell.

Many contractors are dragging their feet on the newer refrigerant because of it's higher pressures, and its affinity for moisture. (Cause for the HVAC Contractor to bone up on the use of the newer gas.) Both not pleasant for the HVAC person.

Zyp

[HeatMan]

I'll argue that fact. the equipment the 410a goes into is higher efficiency, not the gas itself.

Yeah, and Carrier and Trane dropped some of the lines they had 410a in. My opinion is that 410a is the R500 of this decade.

[Astro]

I was wondering that myself. One would think that R-407-C would be a much better choice for the long haul. I too would be hesitant to go R-410a. Anything that increases load pressures would seem to be asking for increased difficulties.

Was it just politics that led to the U.S. going with 410a rather than

407-C?

[Astro]

nevermind. I answered my own question.

See:

My memory had failed me. R407 is significantly less efficient than R410 or R22, like way less efficient. For some reason I had remembered it backwards. Now it makes perfect sense why we'd go with a R410 standard.

oops.

[Gary R. Lloyd]

As I understand it, all of the major companies were in the planning stages of switching to R407c until Carrier started it's mass advertising of R410a, thereby creating a market demand for it. Manufacturers sell what people want to buy.

Carrier even went so far as to give it a new name "Puron" as if they had invented the stuff, which they did not.

IMO, R410A is far more dangerous to work with than R407C.

As to R22 systems, there already are, and there always will be, suitable substitute refrigerants.

Gary R. Lloyd

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

Everybody thinks that 410-A will just be more effencent by it'self. I can buy a

15 seer system in R-22 and a 15 seer in 410-A. So which one is going to be more effecent?

TURTLE

[Red Neckerson]

"Gary R. Lloyd" wrote

No offense, but that is pure bullsh*t. Show me some facts to back up that statement.

Far more dangerous? It's not any more dangerous than R-22. There are the naysayers that keep saying that "it's under twice the pressure so it's a time bomb waiting to go off". That's a crock, too. True, that the pressures ARE almost twice as high, but there have been no problems with exploding units or lines springing leaks "that shot right in a worker's eye and froze his brain!!!". Been installing and servicing 410 units for almost 12 years now and haven't had any problems (except having to buy new manifolds and recovery machine. If anything, a statement about the two should read: "R407 is LESS efficient that R410"

Where ARE those substitue refrigerants? What brand unit can I go pick up (and install in a customer's house) that isn't R-22 or R-410???

Gary, you are going to have to face the fact that 410 is here to stay. Even American Standard (Trane) has said that after this year, they will stop manufacturing R-22 units and make only 410. I agree that there is nothing wrong with R-22 and they should keep using the stuff, but it isn't going to happen.

[Gary R. Lloyd]

No offense taken. This is what I was told by an engineer from York, who was directly involved in the change-over.

More pressure = more danger

There are several drop-in replacements available, and in a pinch propane will work.

I have not disputed the obvious fact that R410A is here to stay.

Gary R. Lloyd

[Astro]

[Red Neckerson]

"Gary R. Lloyd" wrote

I know. AND I see YOUR point. It was before my time when they came out with that "great replacement" R500, but I know when I started in this business I had to carry that damn jug of it around! Only used it twice (on a couple old CARRIER units!!). So I understand why a lot of people are a little leary about accepting 410 as THE replacement..

I figure in another year we won't need air conditioning because they will have PCUs (Personal Comfort Units) that you carry around in your pocket.....

;-]

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

When the manufactors come out with a reasoniable priced system of 18 seer + with R-410-A which R-22 has not got to. I would be swaded to go with the R-410-A type freon systems. I know the time is coming for everybody to get the set freon that will be used but till they decide on R-410-A , Puron, AZ-20, R-407-C, NC-22, [ still in the picture R-134-A ] , and here is a wild one [ the EPA says we just discovered a new 1000-G stuff that will be better than anything known so far ] . So i will say this --- No freon is set in stone as being the freon to be used in the future as of now. Watch out for the door is still open.

TURTLE

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

Red When you have to set the PSH at 600 to 700 psi you do increase the change of doing more damage if a line blows off.

It's still up in the air as to 410-A being the norm but it sure is looking that away.

Now 407-C will still be around here for a long time and i think people will hold on to the 22 units till the cows come home.

Also I'm going to sell 22 units till the last minte and then go the new stuff or R-410-A. The 407-C will be good enough to take care of the 22 units sold now.

TURTLE

[Hugo Drax]

I would be more concerned with the quality of equipment and installer not the GAS inside.

[Dr. Hardcrab]

True.

Manufacturers may stop using R-22 in their units within the next few years, but there is so much of it stockpiled out there that it may even come DOWN in price. Just my own belief: Puron (R-410A) is here to stay, so don't be afraid of IT either.

As The Drax Man said: Worry about the person installing it more than the brand or refrigerant......