Ah, so don't come straight up! Just try to get into the closet as straight as possible, and with as few degrees of bend as possible, and with as long a radius as possible. Ok, I'll put that in the spec!
Really?
So, um, how is it both units ARE THE SAME SEER?
Efficiency is simply the ratio of two scalar physical quantities: heat moved to power consumed. For example, BTUs per watt-hour. Coil or compressor volume is not a factor.
Good stuff - yes it's (polyurethene sealant) quite legitimate to use on single detached dwelling units. Some more considerations for all you craftsmen ...... Also glad that you use extended radius wherever practical - For R22 I believe that the rule of thumb for linesets is each 90deg bend is equal to
5m (that's about 15 feet) of horizontal pipe run and the maximum lift for R22 needs to be kept below 6m (20 ft). An oil trap needs to be used if the evaporator is below the compressor (or the oil will migrate out of the compressor then "poof" another unnecessary callout and repair) and if otherwise the lineset should fall at not less than 1degree back to the compressor (same reason).
I don't know how much you can get away with on a 7/8" suction line, but the two I've pulled both had 45-degree ells at both ends (total 90). The pull and subsequent re-piping were a little bit hard, and required some cooperation to not put too much pull at the bends, but we didn't crimp the suction lines doing them.
LLoyd
So why is it that the coils size, volume, refrigerant quantity, compressor size, compressor capacity are so much larger on the R-22 systems to get the same efficiency and BTU ratings as the same equipment in R-410a????
I can only tell you what I *SEE* from direct, hands on experience, and what I am learning from the manufacturers tech reps, and engineers.
Richard, Just for grinns, how many of each of these systems have you installed?? What first hand experience do you have with the new systems??
First Thank you Mr. Kinch You are the first person that I read in these forum about Refrigerant 410, I personally I do not find anything good about R-410. but then all new refrigerants are not that great with exception of R-508B all rest run with high temp. discharge if system develop leak on low side 9 to 1 you must change oil because you can not take moisture out of oil, so what it's good about this new refrigerant I have no idea. However Manufactures loves R-410 because it makes compressors more efficient specifically Scrowl no that is not correct, "actually all compressors other then reciprocal" again because it is easier for them to assemble the system and compressors are cheaper there is no other benefits from this refrigerant
I regard to piping size you can always use higher pressure refrigerants on the older systems that was using lower pressure refrigerant of the same capacities. Note yes R-22 manufacture will stop making new gas but recycled gas will be on market for long time after that. Tony
"Tony" wrote in news:7b23i.9436$yy6.1077@trnddc05:
You must be new here....
So what? How does that make them poor refrigerants?
A leak on the low side doesn't mean moisture will get into the system. It's still under pressure. How do you figure external moisture is going to overcome the pressure of the refrigerant leaking out and infiltrate the system?
Maybe take a night school course.
Where are you getting this shit from?? Did this come to you in a dream???
Sounds like you're talking about two different measures of efficiency. One is saying that R-410 is a more efficient *refrigerant* because it provides more cooling per unit of refrigerant pumped around the system. The other is saying that both *systems* have the same efficiency in terms of cooling provided per watt-hour of electricity consumed.
Dave
Yes. My right one, and the other wrong one.
That's an interesting issue, but it is not a matter of efficiency.
Your observations are fine. Your analysis of those observations is muddled as regards efficiency.
The profit motive tends to overpower critical thinking. Here is some typical blarney from a Peirce-Phelps, Inc Web page that shills for Carrier
Now if it is more efficient, up to 14 SEER, then this implies there is no R-22 system of 14 SEER or more. Which is false.
Yes you can, it's just a pain in the ass!
Low side, it's not ALWAYS under pressure during operation.
Actually it is, as R-410a is a more efficient refrigerant than R-22, because it takes approximately half of the amount of refrigerant to do the same job.
Again, as I asked before, what actual hands on experience do you have with
*ANY* R-410a refrigerant or equipment??... specifically equipment designs manufactured after January 2006. Have you even *SEEN* any of the new equipment?? Have you been to any of the classes or training for R-410a or the new equipment and technologies??ummmm....yeah, ok... typical Carrier sales stuff for their older equipment.
This has nothing to do with the current conversation. If your trying to confuse the issue as you like to do, please take it somewhere else. If you have the training, education and experience with any of the new equipment and technologies on the market, then by all means continue, but please try to keep on track.
No. Efficiency is a ratio of HEAT TRANSFERRED to ENERGY CONSUMED. No mass or volume factors in that ratio.
Maybe you are a Carrier salesman or ad-copy writer, in which case facts don't matter? "Efficiency" is then a puff word, not a physical measurement. Or maybe you are a tradesman who passes this phoniness along to the homeowner to justify your unearned profits from trade regulation and collusion. You just want to believe it because otherwise you feel you haven't honestly earned the exorbitant prices you charge.
Carrier is just making a big lie out of this, saying Puron "lends itself" to efficiency. "Lends itself" just means "more expensive to make an air conditioner with it" for the same efficiency. So you can only sell the more efficient models, since the extra costs of 410a vs 22 are buried in dual-speed and other expensive gadgetry.
To you and Carrier, one 14 SEER unit is "more efficient" than another. Baloney.
Tradesman's swagger doesn't enlighten you in the least on this question.
Yeah Asshole, understand there's a difference in the two following statements...
"R410 refrigerant is more efficient than R22"
"An R410 14 SEER unit is more efficient than a R22 14 SEER unit"
Now look at the thread title, it says "R-22 vers R410". It says nothing about complete systems!
If you had a brain, you wouldn't be agruing about this.
Also, if you were informed, you would already know what brand Noon-Air sells... hint, it's not a Carrier product. Now crawl back in your hole and shut the hell up.
wrote
Yes it is, unless, as I stated in my post, a leak occurs to the point where a vacuum is caused during operation, in which case the charge is fractionated and should be completely removed, the leak repaired, a vacuum pulled, a filter/dryer installed and/or replaced, and a new charge weighed in. Remember, I was responding to Tony's post where he stated that with 410A, even a small leak will cause water to enter the system. This is simply not true.
By tranplanting a 410-A compressor of the same HP into an existing R-22 system, and charging the system with 410-A and replacing the TXV, the SEER of the system will be greater after the changes.
What this means is that R-410_A can achieve the same SEER by using a physically smaller compressor (smaller because mass flow rate requirement is lower) and smaller coils. Refrigerants can actually be rated in efficiency (EER) compared to each other, and specifically in regards to the application. They are correct, and you are wrong. The problem is that they didn't know why they were right.
hvacrmedic
This is Tony now Mr. Lawblow where did you read that I said even small leak. I did not specified size of leak not that would make any difference how big or small leak is, question here is did system lost charge and gone in to vacuum so that moisture can be pull in. You work on air conditions that low side pressures are let say between 50 and 100 Psi I work on systems that low side pressure may very between 20" vacuum and 150 Psi and lot of cases don't have any safety protection such as low and high pressure cut off! "stupid design yes" but I did not built them or design them. Not long ago I replace two scroll compressor because oil return line crack compressor lost oil and refrigerant and you may use word committed suicide, Why no safeties and customer did not want put one in, I install new compressor but report reads sorry no warrantee. Dear Sir you need to be in business few more years before you can even think of catch in up to my experience. Tony
This is quite confused. Efficiency is a property of a refrigeration system, not a refrigerant. It also varies with conditions. There is no such thing as comparative efficiency of refrigerants, as opposed to system efficiency under specific conditions.
You may be confusing refrigerant properties like molar heat capacity with efficiency. R410a is "better" in that regard than R22, and worse in other properties important to refrigeration. Which one performs better depends on the systems employed and the operating conditions. You can cook up examples where either outperforms the other.
Kinch, Your trolling is getting a bit tiresome. Maybe if you got your nose out of the books, and actually worked with these refrigerants and this equipment in real life, you would have a better understanding of what we are talking about.
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