R-22 vs. R410a (Puron)

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Low side, it's not ALWAYS under pressure during operation.
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Yes it is, unless, as I stated in my post, a leak occurs to the point where a vacuum is caused during operation, in which case the charge is fractionated and should be completely removed, the leak repaired, a vacuum pulled, a filter/dryer installed and/or replaced, and a new charge weighed in. Remember, I was responding to Tony's post where he stated that with 410A, even a small leak will cause water to enter the system. This is simply not true.
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This is Tony now Mr. Lawblow where did you read that I said even small leak. I did not specified size of leak not that would make any difference how big or small leak is, question here is did system lost charge and gone in to vacuum so that moisture can be pull in. You work on air conditions that low side pressures are let say between 50 and 100 Psi I work on systems that low side pressure may very between 20" vacuum and 150 Psi and lot of cases don't have any safety protection such as low and high pressure cut off! "stupid design yes" but I did not built them or design them. Not long ago I replace two scroll compressor because oil return line crack compressor lost oil and refrigerant and you may use word committed suicide, Why no safeties and customer did not want put one in, I install new compressor but report reads sorry no warrantee. Dear Sir you need to be in business few more years before you can even think of catch in up to my experience. Tony www.cas-environ.com

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where
But it *IS* true, it can and will happen.
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A leak can let water (and air, which is also bad) enter the system if the pressure inside the line is below atmospheric pressure. But how often does that happen?
A pressure of 0 PSI gage (15 PSI absolute) in an R-22 or R-410a system means that the evaporator is either at -40 degrees, or it's dry (no refrigerant flowing). This is not a normal operating condition for an air conditioning system.
In normal operation, the low side pressure is several times atmospheric pressure and any leakage is outwards.
    Dave
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On Sun, 20 May 2007 21:19:14 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@cs.ubc.ca (Dave Martindale) wrote:

Are you tring out for idiot of the day?
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wrote in message

vacuum
weighed
410A,
You better get some current training under your belt, before you start spewing shit about things you don't understand.
Moisture doesn't care if your system is operating under a vacuum or not.
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snipped-for-privacy@cs.ubc.ca (Dave Martindale) wrote \\

Thank You!!
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"Poor Canada. So desperate to be the socialist nirvana of multicultural
heaven, that it ends up being used and abused by the dregs of the world.
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Ya, I know, that's what you keep saying. But you can't back it up. Like the second coming of Christ, I'm still waiting...
--
"Poor Canada. So desperate to be the socialist nirvana of multicultural
heaven, that it ends up being used and abused by the dregs of the world.
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Yes you can, it's just a pain in the ass!
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According to the Rheem tech rep, if the lineset is correctly sized, blowing it out with N2 real well and using a little lineset flush is sufficient for a new R-410a system. Contrary to popular belief, R-410a is a more efficient refrigerant, and requires a smaller compressor. The same size of R-22 system in the same efficiency will use twice the amount of refrigerant to do the job. The real catch is if the lineset is correctly sized. As far as reliability, I have recently replaced 35 year old R-22 systems with R-410a....I can't say about the longevity with the new because it hasn't been around that long.
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Noon-Air writes:

Please explain.
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Ok..... 2 heat pumps, 4 ton, 13 SEER...same series......
RPNL-048JAZ 13SEER R-410a heat pump takes 11.5lbs refrigerant and rated 21.8 RLA(measured amp draw on the compressor is 12.8 - 13.2 amps) Copeland compressor # ZP42K5E-PFV-130
RPNE-048JAZ 13SEER R-22 heat pump takes 19.8lbs refrigerant and rated 22.7 RLA (measured amp draw on the compressor is 17.6 - 18.0 amps) Copeland compressor # ZR45K3-PFV-835
The R-410a compressor is also physically almost half the size of the R-22 compressor. Using half the amount of refrigerant, half of the coils(single layer instead of double layer coils in the condenser/heat pump), and a smaller compressor, to give the same or greater efficiency at the same BTU capacity, makes R-410a more efficient......almost twice that of R-22.
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Please to compare (say, contractors) cost of 11.5lbs of R-410a (which is not 1 refrigerant but a combination of 2) vs 19.8lbs of R-22.
80+% of residential cooling is done without heat pumps. Any particular reason to illustrate with heat pumps?

This comment was appreciated.
Thx, Puddin'
"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!" -Friedrich Schiller
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Noon-Air writes:

Really?
So, um, how is it both units ARE THE SAME SEER?
Efficiency is simply the ratio of two scalar physical quantities: heat moved to power consumed. For example, BTUs per watt-hour. Coil or compressor volume is not a factor.
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So why is it that the coils size, volume, refrigerant quantity, compressor size, compressor capacity are so much larger on the R-22 systems to get the same efficiency and BTU ratings as the same equipment in R-410a????
I can only tell you what I *SEE* from direct, hands on experience, and what I am learning from the manufacturers tech reps, and engineers.
Richard, Just for grinns, how many of each of these systems have you installed?? What first hand experience do you have with the new systems??
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Noon-Air writes:

That's an interesting issue, but it is not a matter of efficiency.

Your observations are fine. Your analysis of those observations is muddled as regards efficiency.
The profit motive tends to overpower critical thinking. Here is some typical blarney from a Peirce-Phelps, Inc Web page that shills for Carrier (http://www.nopay.com/aircond_38TZA.asp ):

Now if it is more efficient, up to 14 SEER, then this implies there is no R-22 system of 14 SEER or more. Which is false.
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Actually it is, as R-410a is a more efficient refrigerant than R-22, because it takes approximately half of the amount of refrigerant to do the same job.

Again, as I asked before, what actual hands on experience do you have with *ANY* R-410a refrigerant or equipment??... specifically equipment designs manufactured after January 2006. Have you even *SEEN* any of the new equipment?? Have you been to any of the classes or training for R-410a or the new equipment and technologies??

ummmm....yeah, ok... typical Carrier sales stuff for their older equipment.

This has nothing to do with the current conversation. If your trying to confuse the issue as you like to do, please take it somewhere else. If you have the training, education and experience with any of the new equipment and technologies on the market, then by all means continue, but please try to keep on track.
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Noon-Air writes:

No. Efficiency is a ratio of HEAT TRANSFERRED to ENERGY CONSUMED. No mass or volume factors in that ratio.
Maybe you are a Carrier salesman or ad-copy writer, in which case facts don't matter? "Efficiency" is then a puff word, not a physical measurement. Or maybe you are a tradesman who passes this phoniness along to the homeowner to justify your unearned profits from trade regulation and collusion. You just want to believe it because otherwise you feel you haven't honestly earned the exorbitant prices you charge.
Carrier is just making a big lie out of this, saying Puron "lends itself" to efficiency. "Lends itself" just means "more expensive to make an air conditioner with it" for the same efficiency. So you can only sell the more efficient models, since the extra costs of 410a vs 22 are buried in dual-speed and other expensive gadgetry.
To you and Carrier, one 14 SEER unit is "more efficient" than another. Baloney.

Tradesman's swagger doesn't enlighten you in the least on this question.
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Yeah Asshole, understand there's a difference in the two following statements...
"R410 refrigerant is more efficient than R22"
"An R410 14 SEER unit is more efficient than a R22 14 SEER unit"
Now look at the thread title, it says "R-22 vers R410". It says nothing about complete systems!
If you had a brain, you wouldn't be agruing about this.
Also, if you were informed, you would already know what brand Noon-Air sells... hint, it's not a Carrier product. Now crawl back in your hole and shut the hell up.
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