Question regarding plumbing

[83LowRider]

We live at the peak of a small mountain.

We replaced our well water with city water about 9 years ago.

City water was overall fine for first few years, low pressure at first, due to our altitude, but the city upped the pressure after the first year or so (to everyone in this area) and tho not 'great' pressure after that, it was adequate for a few years.

About 3 years ago I replaced our (30g, I think) hot water heater with a larger GE 50 gallon tank. (this may or may not be related)

There has been a few periods of hammer lock (pipes beating/banging). Tho not certain, it seems these may have happened before the water heater replacement. Hammer lock has not come into play for the last year at least.

We have water on ground level and a basement with a washing machine. The water heater sits almost next to washer, the master bath/shower is directly above the water heater/washer. It's been suggested this may be an issue.

That's all the details offhand -- the problem-

If water is running and someone opens a second source, the pressure just quits. If one of the toilets is refilling and the second one is flushed, they both stop filling... usually hearing what I'd call a vapor lock. This is the worst when dealing with anything in the master bathroom (remembering water heater is directly below). I can usually run the kitchen sink and also open the sink in the hall bathroom. I can be running the hose outside and turn on the kitchen sink or hall bathroom. What I cannot do -- is be running anything in the master bathroom and turn on something else. This almost always results in the 'vapor lock' sound and all pressure (but a VERY slight trickle) being lost. Even turning on the shower in the m.bedroom is a procedure. Having no other water running, the pressure seems VERY strong in the tub, but often locks and quits after a few second. To turn on the shower requires pulling up the shower lever first, and slowly pulling out the Moen (recently replaced) water valve. It's been 'said' that the larger heater being directly below the bathroom may be the cause. I've tried suggestions for vapor lock, opening all valves, etc. I've recently added a one-way valve in case pressure was being pulled back down due to our altitude. A contractor friend has no more suggestions, a longtime buddy that was a plumber for quite a few years has no answers. Anyone?

[hrhofmann]

can you run multiple cold water devices other than the toilets? If not, then you just have a pressure or flow problem, not an air lock. If one device works ok, then pressure is not a problem, you have a partial blockeage in the feed line. Do you have any neighbors at the same altitude. I don;t see howw an airlock could posssssibly be to blame.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi, Have you a pressure gauge monitoring the main feed pipe? Our house has one with pressure regulator. When water is drawn at any level in the house, the running pressure stays 50-60PSI typical.

[Paul Drahn]

Sounds to me like someone used teflon tape on a pipe joint and accidentally wrapped tape over the end of the pipe. Sure seems to be a blockage that is very persistent.

One other comment relating to pressure. If you are in the USA and the city or water district is also supplying hydrants in the street for fire fighting, then you must have enough pressure in the area to supply a large volume of water to the hydrants. Your water will be supplied by the same water line. Have you ever seen the fire dept. opening the hydrants? They will do this annually to check them.

Paul

[Evan]

It sounds like the pressure in the city main has dropped again in your area... I would call the water people and ask them if they have changed the pressure in the area, if your neighbors are experiencing a similar issue then there could be a leak in one of the water mains in your area, if no neighbors are having the same problem than your specific water supply pipe could be leaking on your property if the city has not decreased the pressure...

You should have a water pressure gauge installed somewhere near your water meter if you do not have one currently installed...

~~ Evan

[jw]

Sounds to me more like clogged pipes. What kind of pipe do you have?

Try this. If there is no shutoff right near the meter, turn off the water, install a Tee in the main pipe right after the meter, and see what you have for pressure. If it's adaquate, it's your pipes. You cna also buy a well presure gauge and install this into that tee. What is the pressure? 40lb and up should be fine, 50 or more is preferred.

It could also be a bad main shutoff valve with loose washer. Check your valves.

Before doing any of this, why not have the water company check the pressure. That's what you pay them for.

[Mr. Austerity]

It's a hydraulic system, you will need to check the pressure before the meter, after the meter before the distribution, then along the distribution system to find the "bottle neck". If the system isn't supplying adequate pressure call them. Public water supplies are required to provide a minimum of 25lb pressure to all parts of their system at all time, which usually include the backside of your water meter. Pretty standard stuff,

[83LowRider]

Yes, I can usually turn on a a couple cold outlets depending on which ones. Same with the hot water.

My closest neighbor has no similar problem. He is at a slightly lower elevation and may well have different piping (coming up the hill). The property on the other side of my neighbor is his brother. When they (the brothers) hooked to city water I believe they had a larger meter installed than mine. When I first hooked up my pressure was kinda poor, but theirs was adequate, tho they wouldn't call it great. A few months later the city announced they would 'up' the pressure along my road due to more people living on the peaks complaining of low pressure. They also warned that some lower residents may want to consider a reducer.

[83LowRider]

Being in a fairly rural area, hydrants are a rare sight around here.

[83LowRider]

No, I'm not aware of what the pressure may be coming into the house.

[83LowRider]

That's something I'd have to call someone in for. I wouldn't mind having a plumber come out for something definitive, but I hate to pay for something that is going to be a seek and find game if there is anything left to be done that I could check or do myself. Back to your statement, I don't know how much a gauge at the meter would tell me as there is slightly over a quarter-mile of pipe coming up alongside the driveway along with a fairly steep incline.

[83LowRider]

Copper pipe inside the house.

I almost have to believe that the pressure near the meter/road is very good as it was increased to the point of the water company giving out warnings and suggesting reduction valves for those at street level.

[trader4]

Find some places along the path of the pipes from where they first become accessible where you can either measure pressure or open a fitting, spigot, etc. If you can flow the water you can visibly see how much water flows and what the pressure is like. With a gauge, you could see how the pressure at that point reacts as you open faucets, etc elsewhere.

From the description, it would seem very strange what's going on, not just a simple low pressure problem. IF it were just low pressure, then when you flush a second toilet, you'd have about 1/2 the flow rate in each one. You shouldn't have it go from normal flow rate in one to just a trickle in both. Sounds like some kind of obstruction in the pipe that when there is enough flow, moves to block it off. Kind of like one of those new fancy hoses they have for washers, etc that close off the supply if the pipe bursts.

Also, since it's obviously cold water too, it can't be the water heater, though it's possible that they fouled up with some obstruction in part of the cold supply to the rest of the house, if they worked on that at the time.

[Stormin Mormon]

The OP said s/he was at the top of a big hill, might not be enough water main to supply a hydrant.

Don't know where you are, but in the Rochester, NY area, I've not heard of any hydrant flushing program. Back in about 1979 or so, when I was in the fire explorers, I asked about that. The fireman I asked said they used to flush hydrants, but some people had brown water for up to two days, so they stopped the flushing program.

I thought that was short sighted. They should have flushed until the brown water cleared, not just turn the hydrant on enough to stir up the rust from the bottom of the pipe. But, they weren't listening to me back then. They still don't listen.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

.

One other comment relating to pressure. If you are in the USA and the city or water district is also supplying hydrants in the street for fire fighting, then you must have enough pressure in the area to supply a large volume of water to the hydrants. Your water will be supplied by the same water line. Have you ever seen the fire dept. opening the hydrants? They will do this annually to check them.

Paul

[trader4]

They flush them here in my local NJ water system about once a year.

[N8N]

You can get a gauge that you can screw onto the drain valve of your water heater, an outside spigot, or a laundry sink faucet (basically it's a pressure gauge with a brass fitting on it to convert it to female garden hose thread) for not much cash at your local Big Box. Just have to be careful not to kick it while it's installed.

nate

nate

[Stormin Mormon]

The gage would tell you if your water pressure falls when a second device is opened. Help find out if the device(s) are defective, or if the water pressure drops.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

.

That's something I'd have to call someone in for. I wouldn't mind having a plumber come out for something definitive, but I hate to pay for something that is going to be a seek and find game if there is anything left to be done that I could check or do myself. Back to your statement, I don't know how much a gauge at the meter would tell me as there is slightly over a quarter-mile of pipe coming up alongside the driveway along with a fairly steep incline.

[Larry W]

Wise decision on their part.

[micky]

Baltimore County is pretty prosperous, but I've never seen anyone flushing a hydrant, nor heard reference to it . (Baltimore County is not the same as Baltimore City, which is about the size of a county.)

I think they did so in NYC, so I'm not surpised they do it in NJ.

[micky]

You mean water hammer, not hammer lock. no locking involved.

I havent' read the rest of the thread, but it sounds like you have low pressure. Could you put in your own, underground so it won't freeze, water tank, which would fill over time and provide pressure all the time. It has to be higher than your house, though maybe only one flight higher** OR

In NYC, city water pressure is enough for 4 flights or 5 and if you have 6, you have to put a combination pump in the basement. It's a tank with air in the top. As water is used, a pressure gauge turns on the water pump, to keep pressure in the tank, which propels the water to the 6th floor.

As the air in the top of the tank dissolves in the water, an airpump turns on, much less often, to replace the disolved air, which is carried away in the water.

The only ones I've seen have been expensive and enough for 50 appartments. Maybe there is another version for houses.

The owner of my building iddnt' know how it worked, and when someone flushed the toilet, the shower turned burnng hot. That's when I switched to taking baths, because I didn't get burned then.

**Buildings higher than 6 stories have a tank on the roof,. maybe on a stand on the roof. And a water pump in the basement to get the water up that high. Like a water tower in a small town, but each building has one. When they have dramas set in nYC with helicopter views of the city, you can often see the tanks, though often they are behind decorative walls.