I added a circuit breaker to my box yesterday. In the process, I found that the ground buss their-in was already totally occupied with existing white and bare-copper wires. In fact one buss spot had two white wires held in one spot (under one screw). So, I figured it would be okay for me to do the same with my new white wire and bare-copper wire. So now I have three buss screws that each hold two wires.
Any problem here?
Thanks
Jethro
It really depends on what the panel is listed to do, however typically you can install two ground wires under one screw, but not two neutral wires
I have done it with no problem
Well, then, I guess I should take another look to see if all neutrals are singular and only grounds are doubled up.
Thanks
Jethro
So have I , but sadly that doesn't prove it is okay. My house had a multiwire circuit all on one leg, and my cottage had three #12 wires connected to one 50a breaker. The fact that they had been like that for 20 years certainly didn't prove they were okay.
2005 NEC information, summerized, so read the codes directly.
110.14 "Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used for to connect aluminum shall be so identified"
- Unless you have a lables and listings in your panel, or put out by the panel manufacture you can not put two conductors under a terminal screw.
110.3(b) "in accordance with any instractions included in the listing or lableing"- Get information from the manufacturer
110.12 "Electrical equipmen shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner"- No guessing allowed. ;)
408.41 "Each grounded conductor [neutral wire] shal terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor"There is an exception for parallel conductors, but from you description, you need to not double up seperate circuts under a screw.
Conclusion?
Nothing of this is meant as a how-to, just a starting point to understand that only 'qualified personel' should work on electrical equipment. The potential for problems isn't just limited to voided house warranties, code violations, fires, loss of property, and worse, loss of life.
hth,
tom
TOM - you have scared the Hell out of me!
Jethro
I have never seen a wire come off the buss, though I expect it can happen; I have had them fall off breakers and it is not too different. If it did, 999 times out of 1000 you would simply have a dead circuit if it were a neutral. If it were a ground, you would probably never know, though it would be pretty obvious if you ever encountered a situation where you need a ground.
Even that 1 chance in 1000 probably wouldn't be serious. But of course, it could be. Since you don't want to gamble with your life, it is important to follow code.
So, be scared enough to follow code, but not scared enough to lose sleep.
Tom
My panel is a Siemens W0816MB1200CT Series E Type 3R
It is now full with 8 breakers: left side 220V 20A for garage baseboard heat (double)
110V 15A for porch addition (single) 110V 20A for 8000 BTU window A/C alone (single)right side
110V 15A for reefer and freezer in garage alone (twin with next) 110V 15A for garage lights and door openers (twin with prior) 110V 15A for garage workbench alone (twin with next) 110V 15A for computer equipment only (what I added this) (twin with prior) 220V 20A for outside whole-house surge protection device (double)It has a 200A Main Breaker
What do you think?
You can always add a ground-neutral buss
You know - you are right there. I'll have to look again to see if there is room. I would think so, since the box itself is quite large. Can you buy a short buss at Lowes or HD? I never saw one, for what that's worth.
Jethro
One more -
I can examine breaker boxes in the store I guess to see how two ground-busses are linked, but do you know? That is, should a second new buss be connected to the first one (which of course is grounded)? Or does a second buss need its own ground?
Thanks
Jethro
If it doesn't come as a kit, get a short piece of #4 to link them together
Thanks
Jethro
Look at your panel. Many times the neutral bar is bonded to the case via a screw. It might be a very pale green. By adding your ground bar to the panel (usually screwed right into the back metal panel), the two are now bonded on your main panel.
Just a guess, didn't look up your specific panel.
tom @
I saw a loose neutral wire, one time. The lady had a socket in the front room which didn't want to run the window AC. However, the socket in the kitchen was OK, but that didn't cool the house as well.
I pulled the panel box open, and went to turn on the AC. She noticed the sparking "up in the corner there". Tightened all the neutrals, and found the one that was loose.
As to twins, I'm like a newbie. Do you mean physically coupled together? Why? I've only seen that with 220 circuits like stoves and water heaters, where one wants to diconnect both sides of one thing at the same time. Does your garage freezer lose power when a garage light trips the breaker?
never double up neutral wires! if you remove a neutral wire from the neutral buss and the circuit is under a load, that wire will become energized and you could fry your self. you should not see white wires connected to the grounding terminals. i suggest you have an electrician have a look at your panel.
Maybe 'twins' is the wrong term. I was told that the term was the correct descriptor. There are regular size 15A breakers about some 1" wide. There are other 15A breakers that are the same size but contain two (yes two) actual 15A breakers completely not associated with each other. What you end up with is two 15A breakers that occupy the breaker panel space of one normal 15A breaker. Thus you have two
15A breakers that function as two breakers normally would, but the use less pane space. I hope I described this clearly.HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.