Pulling a wire through a EMT pipe

[nmbexcuse]

I guess I have two questions. First let me explain this situation.

I have an existing EMT conduit that runs from my panel in the garage to a junction box in the attic 80 feet away. From the junction box another pipe to go to the outside to serve the pool pump.

When my electricians were looking at the wires, they determined that the color of the wires are wrong on that run, they have used a blue #12 wire when it should be white #12 to the junction box, and then they used a black #12 to continue on that wire to the pump (actually the timer of the pump). Due to this mis-color, it got them confused and they recommended that I rerun new wires while we are working on the wiring. I agreed. This resulted in me having to buy an extra roll of 500' #12 wire ($60) and a change order to the contract with added money ($250).

They told me this was "all taken care of".

Now a few days later, I asked them if they ran the wire, they told me no. Why, because the conduit was too tight, it has #8 wires in it to serve an AC unit, and they tried to pull the old wire but not able to, thinking the old wire may be twisted or tangled with the #8 around some elbows. I understand that....but...

(1) In this case, should I be subjected to the added charge? Since they didn't do what they said they would do? or yes since they spent time trying? At the end they used colored electrical tapes to wrap around the ends of the wires to indicate the mis-coloration.

(2) Should I attempt to change it? Should I ask them to pull the #8 and the #12 all out, untangle everything, and then run the new wires through together? or is this a high risk that we may not be able to feed everything through? Pipe is 1/2", there are I think two #8 and two #12 with the intent to replace both #12.

Thanks in advance,

MC

[Terry]

It sounds like the guys you have are totally incompetent.

Why were they out there in the first place?

If they were messing with the wiring just because it was the wrong color then they were trying to stiff you in the first place.

[John Grabowski]

I would have suggested just reidentifying the wires with colored tape to begin with. Pulling out old wires and putting them back in can be a PIA. If your change order says pull in new wires and they didn't do that I would think that some renogoitating is in order for the time that they actually did spend.

That conduit is a little on the small side for those wires. It should have been 3/4" EMT. No wonder they had trouble trying to pull the old conductors out. You might as well leave it as long is everything is working properly. I guess the conduit is serving as the equipment grounding conductor. Not the best way to go for a pool.

[Joe]

Totally agree with this view. Don't know for sure, but seems to me there are code issues here. Common sense says hire a competent journeyman and redo the the system with proper grounds and at least

3/4" EMT. The OP definitely got ripped off by a couple of hacks. Sad.

Joe

[RBM]

For the amount of labor and materials to run emt that distance, it really was a shame not to use a conduit large enough for future expansion. I would have just remarked the conductors and used them, but as John Grabowski pointed out, the NEC requires a #12 insulated ground conductor run to a pool pump

[RBM]

NEC 680.21 only requires it to be minimum #12 and insulated, but not solid

[Terry]

And it has to be solid.

[Red Green]

Terry wrote in news: [e-mail]:

I'm no 'lectrician and I thought NEC made cash registers or something like that but I try to stay withing the rules especially when it comes to safety. In all the house wiring reading I've done, if a wire is used for other than it's normal coded color purpose you just mark the end with the proper color.

Maybe exterior apps or local codes previal.

[RBM]

The National Electric Code has specific requirements for conductor marking, as it does for damn near everything else. You can remark conductors larger than #6. You can remark a white conductor to a color, but grounded and grounding conductors smaller than #6 are generally not supposed to be remarked

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[RicodJour]

1/2" conduit is a bit tight, particularly on longish runs the 8s already in place. This site has a useful conduit fill calculator: Exactly how hard did they try to pull out the offending wire? It's possible they damaged the insulation. Is the work being inspected or are you relying on what these guys tell you?

You don't have to pay for work that isn't done, but then again, I don't know how that change order was worded. These were the guys that kept requesting new boxes of connectors when they hadn't finished a single box and kept scarfing your beverages. Rack up another one. Your next step is to find out if these guys are really licensed. Using a buddy's license doesn't cut it.

R

[MiamiCuse]

Thanks,

They did not put in the 1/2" conductor, the conductor was put in back in

1970 and now code has changed. Most of the pipes are still good.

Except for a few that ran below grade between the planter area and the pool, those were not even low votage, and the EMT pipe totally disintegrated, back then I guess the code was to use EMT?

We color coded the wires and moved forward with this. Now on to another challenge, there is always one after another.

MC

[MiamiCuse]

Well I started watching them closely, they were not taking my stuff, just exceedingly absent minded.

Last week, one of them left about a half reel of 12/2 MC cables in the attic, it was a reel of 250' long cable about half used.

But then again, I found tons of crap in my attic, I found about 65 brand new (but 35 years old) AC filters up there today.

MC