Propane and electric pump heat questions

[makolber]

[Bubba]

and once again I have to point out that your thinking ignores the facts. With all the horse crap you have pointed out once again quoting DOE and hanna-barbarra land and an electrical company, etc. I will give you a real life situation. You think that at 35 degrees a heat pump seems relatively useless. Last night, as luck would have it, It got down to below 35 degrees here in the land of make belive in Cincinnati. My Honeywell Vision Pro IAQ stat showed 35 but looking at the frozen water on my pool cover tells me it was closer to 30. I turned the gas off to my furnace last night and just let my 14 SEER heat pump do its job. I have a 1950's home with brick and block construction (no insulation in the walls) and R-38 blown into the attic. The uninsulated basement is about 75% below grade. NOW, tell me OH Wonderous one with an obviously useless EE degree. How is it that my useless heat pump as you call them maintained 67 degrees last night in my home while the temp outside was around 30?? Also tell me how my system was able to regularly cycle on and off all night , all the while when it went into defrost it was pumping in that additional cold air since I had my gas heat shut off?

and you are wrong wrong wrong just like Hank.

and again, you are wrong wrong wrong. I'll look up my performance chart for you and show you later.

and someone like you that seems to read but interprets it to somewhere in a labratory bubble which NO ONE on earth lives in like you.

Dont worry. You would never be so lucky. Something tells me you are quite the tight-ass and probably hacks all your own crap together. Would you like me to send you another box of duct tape, chewing gum and caulk? Bubba

[trader4]

Agree in principle with what you're saying above. But also at some point, which could be at or around 25, even if the heat pump were large enough so that it could produce all the heat required, other fuels, like nat gas or oil are cheaper to use due to the declining efficiency of the heat pump at lower temps. So if you were to be at that temp or below a lot of the time, then those other fuels are cheaper to use than the heat pump. Also, in additon to the defrost cycles, if you rely on electric resistance heating to supplement, then it becomes a big loser.

[trader4]

On Feb 13, 8:14=A0am, Bubba wrote: ?

Funny how according to you everyone from the Dept of Energy, to Aprilaire, to HVAC companies that have been in business for 30 years are all full of crap. BTW, where are the links that support any of your claims?

Never said any such thing. Only that the efficiency of a heat pump declines as the temperature outside decreases. And at some point, below around 35 degrees or so, other fuels like gas or oil can produce the same amount of heat for less money than it costs to run the heat pump.

Gee, sounds like the Vision Pro thermostat is broken. You should call a competent HVAC guy and get that fixed pronto.

Show us once where I ever said a heat pump was useless at 30 deg. I only said that the efficiency of the heat pump declines with temp, and below somewhere around 35 deg other fuels, like nat gas, become more cost effective.

Never said it wouldn;t warm your house at 35.

So, says you. Then tell us why we don't just use bigger heat pumps that can supply enough heat for a house to be 70 when it's 0 outside? All of MN should have them. And why all the fuss about geothermal? Hmmm? If you can just as efficiently extract heat from

10 deg temps as from 50 deg temps, then why go to all that trouble of using 50 deg groundwater?

Everyone else here agrees that heat pumps use more electricity per BTU of heat generated as the outside temp drops. Hank, Mark, DOE, the HVAC company. I could give you 50 more links. Again, you're in your own little universe where the laws of physics no longer apply. I'd like to see a link from anywhere that says the efficiency of a heat pump does not decline as the outside temp drops.

[Hustlin' Hank]

First: I don't have a heat pump in the house I am in now, so checking the amps is impossible for me to do.

Second: I am not a HVAC installer, repairman, engineer or salesman.

Third: I have been a user of heat pumps and my impression as a "user" is stated in one of my previous posts. I'll say it again, I don't like them.

Fourth: I think we MAY be arguing apples and oranges and you mis- understood (or I didn't explain it correctly) my original comments.

Fifth: ( Trying to explain my point again, altho most understood) I was saying the word "efficiency" and maybe I should have said "effectiveness" in regards to COST.

Sixth: You cannot convince me that a heat pump can save me money below

35 degrees in Ohio. I am up the road from you in Columbus, so I know the weather.

Seventh: I appogize for any mis-understanding on my part.

Eighth: I got nuthin' for 8.

Hank

[Bubba]

Exactly. And Im telling you that you are wrong that a heat pump cant produce cheaper heat below 35 degrees than gas and ESPECIALLY oil! I never said a heat pump doesnt lose efficiency as the outdoor temp decreases. Im telling you that it is still more effective cost wise than gas or oil below 35.

and maybe you should just Bite Me.

Trader, quite honestly, it sounds like you just like to talk in confusing circles when someone calls bull on your theories.

Amazing interpretations you have.

Wow. Do you really not know why or is this your silly test question? OK, bright one. Here comes lesson number 45908 for you. Yes, you could actually get a bigger heat pump or 2 or 3 of them to heat your home at 0 degrees or whatever temp you want to plug in there. Now, how cost effective would it be to purchase and install 3 heat pump systems? Now, another downfall of having say, 10 tons (120,000 btu's) of heat pump just to get enough heat to warm a 1000 sq ft. home is that when you flip that heat pump over to cooling in the summer you are going to have a home that will cool down in the summer to 50 degrees in 5 mins but wont get rid of one ounce of humidity. Now how comfortable will that house be to live in? I know that we are talking about humidity now and I know how hard of a time you have in understanding the principles of that so lets just stick to the heat pump so you dont get too overwelmed for now.

That is not true because again you are wrong. Again, why does the amperage of a heat pump compressor drop as the outside temp drops?

See, now there you just stated it differently twice. Yes a heat pump loses efficiency or loses the ability to produce as many btus as the outside temp drops. BUT, the compressor isnt working as hard as the temp drops thus as you would see by watching the amps. Yes, at a certain outdoor temp a heat pump has a point where it doesnt make sense to run anymore but all homes are different due to the insulating value of the home and the geographical location of the home.

[trader4]

Ninth:

Even if you did what Bubba asked, he doesn't even realize it would not prove anything about the efficiency, which is quite amazing for someone claiming to be so knowledgable and issuing challenges. To measure anything meaningful regarding the heat pump efficiency, you would have to measure not only the current going into the heat pump but ALSO THE AMOUNT OF HEAT THE PUMP IS PUTTING INTO THE HOUSE AT THE TWO DIFFERENT TEMPERATURES.

And if you did, you would find that for the same amount of electricity consumed, you get a lot more heat from the pump when it's 50 outside than you do when it's 25. The Dept of Energy says it works that way, the HVAC company says it and I provided links. I could find you 20 other links that say it too. BTW Bubba, where's your link that says it ain't so?

[Tom Horne]

Hank One thought from a disaster preparedness perspective. depending on which of the Rinnai direct vent gas heaters was installed they may run without any electricity at all. So if you do buy the house don't be too quick to remove those individual direct vent heaters even if you do put in oil or propane fired heat. They not only allow you to run the whole house cooler and just warm up the spaces you happen to be using but they also make a great source of emergency heat following a blizzard or ice storm induced large area power outage. The Rainnai folks used to make a kit that allowed you to install one of their heaters through a double hung window. If you live in an area that gets deadly cold and you have elderly folks or small children in the family that makes an excellent emergency heat source, albeit a rather pricey one. Small children, the elderly, and anyone with a respiratory impairment should not be exposed to the fumes from unvented combustion heaters. Even the super improved newer models are too hard on such folks.

I'm a firefighter by avocation and the fire chief assigned me to the communities Emergency Preparedness Committee so I've had to study up on these issues. We invest a lot of effort in trying to provide the public with the information that they need to get by at home during emergencies. The operation of special needs shelters is a major challenge to disaster response resources. Hospital Emergency Departments are not a good substitute for special needs shelters. The type of emergency heat that people use has a major effect on how many runs the ambulance is going to make while chained up. Dumping the brittle patients in the Hospital Emergency Department because they can't tolerate the emergency heater that their family is using does not make friends of the ED staff that we will still have to live with on a daily basis after the power comes back on.

-- Tom Horne

[Tom Horne]

You apparently "did not go too far" as you said but, for the sake of the uninitiated, let me point out that going too far, when up-sizing a heat pump, isn't hard to do. I have encountered some installations that actually were running so cold when cooling that they had condensate dripping from the vent grills. In northern climates like the Boston, Massachusetts area you are very close to the edge on the original installation were the size is pushed upward to meet heating requirements. Such heat pumps are more expensive to operate as cooling systems because they do not dehumidify as well; note I did not say at all: and so they have to be set lower to feel as cool as a unit that dehumidifies more efficiently.

-- Tom Horne

[Bubba]

Once again Trader.........all you do is read. You believe all the crap you read. I dont need a link when I have the experiment right there in front of me. I can perform all the tests in the world on it. By the way, I got it free. How much was yours? Ive flooded it with refrigerant, ran it short of refrigerant, put a variable fan cycler on it and just about everything else you can imagine. Why? Because you dont know shit about anything until you've gotten your hands on it and tested it yourself. Reading about it just isnt going to do it. So anyways, now you say you have 20 links. Your last post said 50 links. Which is it? Oh, you're making up shit again I see.

I guess that you believe/d everything that Clinton, Bush and now Obhama are saying too, right? After all, what they all promise is true because they said it so obviously you believe it, right trader? You must live with a lot of disappointment believing everything you read. Especially stuff from the DOE.

As a side note, I met with my Aprilaire rep today for breakfast. I showed him your figures on the humidifier. It took him about 5 minutes to stop laughing after seeing your 131% increase in humidification by using hot water. He told me he would get with the EE's (oh shit, that outta be fun) and get me something. I told him I'd prefer it in writing. 2 emails from him so far but nothing showing any figures. "Go figure" Bubba

[Hustlin' Hank]

Correct me if I am wrong. We are talking an electric motor that is hermetrically sealed and running a compressor....correct? Knowing this, why woud it use any less electric (KWH's) when colder? Is it because the wires are cooler and not losing any heat? Does the voltage drop when the weather gets cooler? What is the reason?

On another note. Altho amps figure into the equation somewhere, my electric bill is figured on KWH. Since KWH's are increased due to the fact the Unit is running more often and longer, wouldn't that cost you more, there making the heat pump less desirable/cost effective below

35 degrees?

Hank

[Bubba]

Hank, Yes, thats basically what the motor is. Im glad you brought that up about why you think the compressor doesnt use less electricity when its colder out. Basically, since there is less available heat in the air as it gets colder outside, the compressor isnt "pumping" as hard, thus, the amperage draw goes down. The reverse is true as it gets hotter out. As it gets hotter outside, the unit gets clogged with dirt and the humidity goes up the amperage increases, many times beyond its RLA rating. This is why I repair many burnt compressor wires, blown capacitors, burnt contactors, blown fuses, tripped contactors and blown compressors in the summer. Kilo Watt Hours are based on the actual amount of electricity being used and the length of time it is used. As an example, consider this: Home number 1 uses a 24,000 btu air conditioner 5 hrs a day. Home number 2 uses a 60,000 btu air conditioner 5 hrs a day. Why isnt their electric bill exactly the same if everything else in the home remains exactly the same? I hope this helps. Bubba (hoping I didnt interject any bullshit for you that time)

[trader4]

Following that logic, you'd deny that the earth revolves around the sun too, because you haven't personally verified it. As for your "experiments", we need look no further than what you told Hank to do. You told him to just take an amp meter and measure the current going into a heat pump system at 55 degrees and then 20 degrees. Of course with even a rudimentary understanding of what's involved here, you'd know that to measure the efficiency of the system, YOU'D HAVE TO ALSO MEASURE THE HEAT BEING PUT INTO THE HOME. Then and only then, would you see that the efficiency of a heat pump declines with outside temp.

But, you don't have to perform the experiment. It's right in the data sheets for heat pump systems. Let's take a look at a typical Goodman unit at your two temps:

the GSH140421A heat pump:

Outside Temp 55 20

MBh of heat 44.4 26.6 KW Elec 3.08 2.77 Coefficient of Performance 4.21 2.81

In other words, yes it uses 10% less electricity at 20 degrees than it does at 55, but you also get 40% less heat out. In other words, THE EFFICEINCY HAS DROPPED BY 33%. That is also directly stated in the in the COP numbers above.

Which is why, at some point below about 30 deg, it become more economical to use another fuel, like natural gas to supply the heat. The exact temp depends on the cost of the two different fuels. Which is why dual fuel system are sold using those two fuels. If it were economical to use a heat pump at lower temps than gas, they wouldn't need to use a gas furnace. They could just use a second heat pump. Fairly simple.

Let's see what some others have to say on this subject:

Lennox

a heat pump can be an effective add-on option to use in conjunction with an existing gas furnace. With this dual-fuel option, the two systems share the heating load, but never function at the same time. Each system operates when it is most cost effective. The heat pump will be the primary heating and cooling system. However, when the temperature drops below the heat pump's ability to operate as efficiently as the gas furnace, the gas furnace will take over until the temperature rises enough for the heat pump to operate more efficiently.

From KCPL, an electric company that has no reason to say nat gas becomes more efficient at lower temps:

Dual-Fuel Air Source Heat Pump Systems. These systems pair a heat pump with a gas or propane furnace to provide back-up heating during extremely cold conditions. Dual-fuel systems take advantage of the efficiencies of both units. Heat pumps are most efficient in moderately cold weather down to about 30 degrees. Gas furnaces reach optimum efficiency in extreme cold. Working in tandem, the units take turns operating only at the temperatures where maximum efficiency is achieved. Many dual-fuel systems allow you to select the temperature at which the switching between units takes place. Usually that=92s when outdoor temperatures are around 30 degrees.

From the TVA, a major electric supplier that has no reason to tell anyone that gas is more efficient:

dual-fuel heat pump is an electric heat pump and a gas furnace all in one. In the Tennessee Valley, where temperatures are typically above freezing and we enjoy some of the lowest electric rates in the U.S., a heat pump is the most efficient way to heat your home. In those few instances when the temperature drops below freezing, a gas furnace provides heat more economically. By combining the two, you can have the benefits of both systems.

a graphic display of a hybrid system from Carrier. You can slide the outside and temp and watch it switch from heat pump to nat gas. They have the conversion taking place in the 40's, which I think is too high in most cases, but you get the point. They also state: "The Hybrid Heat system differs from a traditional split system by replacing the air conditioner with a heat pump. Heat pumps cool your home on hot days and provide efficient heating in MODERATE CLIMATES. (emphasis mine)

finally, here's an online calculator for dual fuel systems. You can put in your cost of nat gas, your cost of electricity and efficiencies of the heat pump and gas furnace. It will then tell you at what outside temp HEATING WITH NAT GAS BECOMES MORE COST EFFECTIVE than continuing to run the heat pump.

Using my numbers here in NJ it's around 32 degrees.

Don't compare politicians to credible sources based on science and engineering. BTW, I can't help but notice you have no links that say heat pump efficiency doesn't decrease with outside temp.

Two things are interesting in the above:

1 - In another thread you went to great lengths to discredit Aprilaire as being a credible source on the subject. You stated they would say anything to sell units, even though obviously that is a non-sequitur. Yet, now you want to try to use them?

2 - I find it curious a rep from Aprilaire would say he's going to get EE's, ie Electrical Engineers to look at the humidifier issue. Clearly, your first thought would be to ask a mechanical engineer, which I'm sure AA has, or a chemical engineer as evaporation falls into their discipline.

[Bubba]

Your non simplicity amazes me trader. Never did I say a heat pumps efficiency doesnt decline with a decrease in outdoor temperature. How stupid are you? My arguement is that a heat pumps efficiency doesnt just magically stop and your preset "35 degrees". To say that is just totally wrong.

Hmm, amazing. It uses less electricity as it gets colder. In case you werent following along, That is EXACTLY what I said even though you seem to have some unforseen ability to add meaning and words to my phrases. You truely are magical, trader. Wiggle your nose for me.

Yep, the efficiency drops with the outdoor temperature. Once again, nothing new there although you seem to see that there is. Admittidly, I never mentioned 33%.

Uh oh, there is that "about" word which is used when you dont know what that exact number is. Just a little fact that might make you feel better. Not many people can seem to come up with that exact number. Amazing too that even in the instructions and performance charts with units that they dont give you any charts as to where to set that magical number. Does that maybe give you a clue that it is a number that takes a large amount of time and formulas to come up with? No, I didnt think that dawned on you trader. Many things like that seem to pass right by your thick head.

Hey, your just might be beginning to catch on now. Maybe there is hope after all.

Again, you are close here but your 35 degree temp is too high. Heat pumps do a very nice job even down to 15 degrees outside. Now just so i dont wrinkle your thoughts too much, Im not talking about a 15 or 20 year old heat pump. When heat pumps first came out they were a nice thought but just not ready for prime time. I was in on the first batch of Lennox heat pumps that were added to their electric furnace. You had to add your own relays to make it happen. Then along came the really cold weather and compressor after compressor was failing. Why? Because their brilliant EE's didnt take into account that you couldnt use a standard air conditioning compressor for near 0 outdoor temps. Out comes a newer heat pump compressor and all is well again.

Notice no "magical" change over temperature stated in your above paragraph. A least Lennox has a clue.

And there is your favorite word again trader. The word "about 30 degrees". For someone that seems to be such a stickler on exact words a meaning, Im suprised that you would print that one. Dont worry though, I would expect that from an electric company that has no expertice in the field of heat pumps. Perhaps their gas market is more profittable to them than electric? Opps. Maybe a variable that the Oh mightyless trader forgot about.

Uh huh. Nite exactly the word "about" this time but now they use "around". That is just so exact and scientific trader. Nice job.

I can see why this one would confuse you. I would like to see their study where they seem to think that you automatically turn a heat pump off at 32 degrees.

(slide the outside and temp)?? Who wrote that........a 12 yr old? Converting over to gas at somewhere above 40? Even you know that is incorrect trader which sheds even more light onto the effect that if this was written by Carrier (and Im sure it wasnt) then thats pretty sad and You trader think you know even better than Carrier with your magical 35 number? Shame on you for being so thinkingly bold.

Which then tells me nothing more than the fact that your electricity rates in NJ are high. It also shows me that you have no idea how to calculate it because it takes a TON more information to come up with an accurate temperature at which you changeover your heat pump to some fossil fuel. You need to have a proper Load calculation done on your home (no, you cant use those cheap free ones you find on the internet trader). Dont get cheap on me now. You also need to come up with the balance point of your home. All that and more along with some good interpretation and you can come up with a very close number. Once again, shame on your for just pluging in a fuel cost number and thinking that you can just pop out a temp changeove number. And you call yourself an EE. Im afraid to guess what you actually do/did, trader.

Maybe because your thick head has once again interpreted something I have typed to mean something else. No sweat though. You seem to do that a lot.

Im missing the credible sources you gave but you are free to keep trying. In my mind, the one you copied from Lennox is about the closest.

Only because you seem to think that they are the word of the gospel. To date, after 3 emails, he has sent me nothing that gives any actual numbers. Does that tell you something? The actual company that makes these humidifiers cant give me any real numbers on how much better hot water does for humidity over cold? Doesnt seem odd to you trader? Try General humidifiers or any other. I dont think you will find them.

I like your play on words. First of all, my rep isnt an EE or ME or anything else that I know of. Actually, he used to be a salesperson for the Tempstar line. Now he's moved up to Aprilaire (several years ago now.) Maybe he doesnt know the difference between an EE or ME? Perhaps I didnt even hear him correctly since we were in a crowded restaurant but you are free to keep trying to find a sliver of hope that will credit you. So far you havent done to well. I do like your effort though. You seem to have way way way more time to look all this up than the average human but then that is why they call you guys, EE's. You are if nothing else.......lets say..........."Interesting" "Till we meet again" Bubba (no, Im not leaving. I wouldnt miss this for the world)

[trader4]

Hmmm, then way back when I posted this:

"Although air-source heat pumps can be used in nearly all parts of the United States, they do not generally perform well over extended periods of sub-freezing temperatures. In regions with sub-freezing winter temperatures, it may not be cost effective to meet all your heating needs with a standard air-source heat pump."

or this:

"The piece you're missing here is that amount of heat that you get for the amount of electricity consumed declines as the temp differential between the inside temp and the outside temp increases. In other words, heat pumps become LESS EFFICIENT the lower the outside temp. Which is exactly the point Hank was making when you called his post stupid BS. "

Why didn't you just say "I agree, the efficiency declines", instead of telling Hank he's stupid and to measure the amps going into his heat pump at at 20 vs 55? As if just measuring the amps in without the BTUs of heat out would prove exactly what?

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A020

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 26.6

3.08 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A02.77

Funny how we're hearing that now, after how many posts? But, it's a start.

Probably because you denied the effect existed.

It doesn't take large amount of time or formulas. It's based on the efficiency of the heat pump at the given temperature, the efficiency of the alternative system, eg natural gas furnace, and the costs of the electricity and gas.

I've been saying exactly that since the beginning. In fact, that was Hank's point to which you replied that he was stupid. Welcome to reality.

Funny how only Bubba says 15 or 20, while all the actual manufacturers, energy companies, DOE, etc say more like in the 30's. I guess we have our answer to why systems don't use another heat pump to providde more heat at lower temps though. Answer: Because it isn't economical compared to gas.

One more time, compressors are designed by mechanical engineers, not EE's which are electrical engineers.

Yes, and it's about 30, not your 15 or 20. You see many heat pump systems in VT, MN?

No, didn't forget a thing. But you just proved yourself wrong again, because KCPL sells electric, not gas. You could have prevented making an ass of yourself again by just checking the basic facts. So, if anything, KCPL has every motive to make heat pumps looks good. But even they say heat pumps are only efficient vs other alternatives down to about 30. Note 30, not 15 or 20

Again, about 30. Not 15 or 20. Where are your links?

We'd all like to see your study or links that say heat pumps are cost efficient compared to gas at 15 F.

It's on Carrier's website, which speaks for itself. By the way Bubba, lots of HVAC companies have websites, chock full of info. Where's yours?

And what do you think they are in Boston, which where the OP is located? Even higher. Yet, Hank was supposed to be stupid because he said the cross over point, where gas becomes more cost effective is around 35. Every reference I've given you, and it's a lot now, consistently are around that temp. I can't find one that says it's at 15F. Please provide a link.

And your reference for that would be? Does DOE say it depends on a load calc? HVAC company? Lennox? Who besides Bubba? We know the efficiency of a gas furnace. You put X amount of gas in, you get Y BTU's of heat out. We know the efficiency of a heat pump at various temps, it's in the data sheet. You put X KW in, you get Y BTUs out. I even gave you a website with the calculator where you can enter the above information and it shows a crossover in the 30's, not at 15.

Show us a link to a website that says a heat pump is cost effective vs gas at 15F.

[trader4]

Never stated any such thing. Only stated that at about that temp the efficiency of heat pumps drops so that other fuels, like gas can become more cost effective. Which BTW, are the 2 fuel choices in the original post from Boston.

Once again Bubba, your lack of any grounding in science has you confusing two different things:

1 - With a heat pump, as the efficiency declines with outside temp, there is a temp point at which other fuels like nat gas become MORE COST EFFECTIVE. This doesn't depend on the heat loss of the house, the number of windows or anything else. It depends on the efficiency of the heat pump at a particular temp, the efficiency of the alternative gas furnace, the cost of electricity, and the cost of gas. You could have the windows wide open and all the heat going out. The only question here is to generate X BTU's with a given outside temp, which is more cost effective, running the heat pump or running a gas furnace. 2 - With a heat pump, as the efficiency declines with outside temp and the total heat output drops too, there is a temp point at which the heat pump can no longer supply enough heat to keep the house at the desired temp. It then requires additonal heat from some other source, again it could be gas, per this example. The temp at which this occurs, does depend on the heat loss of the house.

#1 Above involves efficiency, ie which fuel will heat the house most economically. You want to switch at that temp to save money.

#2 just involves getting enough heat, withour regard to efficiency. You have to switch at that point to keep the house at the desired temp. In fact, if the alternate fuel is resistance electric heat, #2 will make the cost of heating increase substantially, not decrease.

Provided you with plenty of links that say the point where heat pumps lose effiency so that gas becomes more cost effective is around that point: Dept of Energy, KCPL, Tenn Valley Authority, Carrier. Even gave you a link to an online calculator,

which allows you to input the costs of the fuels, efficiency of the heat pump, gas furnace and determine it yourself. For my fuel costs here in NJ, it is 32 deg.

And you just choose to dismiss it all. We're still waiting for your link that says a heat pump is effective vs gas down to 15. Funny how you have NO links.

Why not? You're purchasing two anyway. Either a heat pump AND a gas furnace. Or a heat pump and another heat pump. Could certainly just as easily put two heat pumps in one packaged system. Obvious answer: because heat pumps just aren't efficient enough at lower temps to make it worthwhile.

Why? You can turn off the gas furnace, but can't turn off a second heat pump?

No, I just think when you keep refering to electrical engineers when talking about compressors and humdifiers, it shows how totally clueless you really are. Kind of like when you told Hank to just measure the amps going into his compressor as the temp drops. Everyone else here realizes that without also measuring the heat output into the house, it's meaningless.