prog. therm. and heat pump questions

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RP wrote:

A cornered animal perhaps, but more like turtle. I gave him an out, but he refuses to try.
He will retract into his shell and just counter with his standard repettoire. The trick is to get him to stick his head out of the shell.
You need to get him to say something other than the repettoire and he crucifies himself.
I think he figures he is trying the Ali Rope-a-Dope, but he needs to look out for the Parkinsons.
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I only use that approach when some prat like this one attempts to bullshit its way out of its predicament with puerile shit like that one attempted.

And that isnt going to happen if it heats up the main area.

It could happen if you were silly enough to put it in a small room.

Nope, not if it heats the main living area.

Not if it heats the main living area and the primary system spreads that heat out to the rest of the rooms. By definition it should have been designed to do that because it needs to do that when not coming back from the setback.

Corse they are solvable and you dont have to use just one thermostat either. One obvious approach is to have a different one for the primary and secondary systems.
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Maybe the scheme could get more elaborate yet to prove the setback scheme. Put a small ductless split heat pump in each room.
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wrote:

I just got off the blower with a creditor, and I don't want to hear any setback scheme crap right now! :-)

The ultimate zone system. :-)
-- -john wide-open at throttle dot info
~~~~~~~~ The time to repair the roof is when the sun is shining - JFK ~~~~~~~~
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No need, even someone as stupid as you should be able to grasp that the primary system will have the effect of spreading the effect of the single ductless split system thruout the house if its put in the main living area.
In effect the ductless split system is just like the strips except that its much more efficient than the strips for when the primary system doesnt have enough horsepower to come back off setback quickly enough.
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Rod the Rocket postulates

Actually with the heat strips in an auxilairy heat function, the heat strips are in series with the heat pump indoor air coil and the supply air temperature distributed through out the space is elevated above what the heat pump can put out. An electrical analogy would be two heat sources in series.
The ductless booster system will heat up a common area that would also be recieving heat from the central ducted system. Now you have two heat sources in parallel so it already is a smidge different than using the heat strips.
So to avoid the room getting overly hot the ductless system would shut off. You have warmed up the central area but all the other rooms are still not recovered. So you could keep the all the bedroom doors open to allow them to gain as much heat as they could from the booster heater in the living room, but you will not have anything close to uniform heat.
Like a superinsulated home with a central fireplace burning kangaroo chips.
Or if you could summarize just one of your supposed viable systems, maybe you have a big monster heat pump for recovery in the central area that runs balls open and then the ducted system functions as a recirculation system only. The common area would get hot possibly waste heat through the ceiling or any external walls/windows of the common area, its head pressure would elevate with the rising return air temperature in the central room, meaning electrical consumption would go up and COP would go down, but eventually you could have the place recovered on average without strip heaters but wasting energy none the less.
You grew this into including a swamp cooler so I already have given you the suggestion of utilizing its fan to help distribute the heat. Be a little static and some fan/motor heat there to help you out as well maybe a kW of sensible heat to help you out.
So if you have some guts rocket, just lay your cards on the table and explain a viable system for setting back a heat pump. Take your time, think it out, then type it up. If it is viable, and with your climatic frame of reference you have one of the best chances in the world at getting it right. Actually with your climate it may actually be doable. You could cookie cut the design and sell it to Bermuda, but I think it would be back to the drawing board for North America.
So far the ductless booster is a bad idea, you already gave up on trying to recover temperature when everyone gets up in the morning, and your frame of reference is a climate that is not much worse than sub-tropical.
So please have a go at it mate. I'll throw a couple shrimp on the barbie while I wait.
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Irrelevant to it being a more expensive source of that heat.

Irrelevant to strips being a more expensive source of that heat.

ONLY when its got the common area back off setback.
Thats what you want it to do.

Wrong, the primary system will be circulating that warmed up air from the central area to the other areas.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever had a fucking clue about the basics.
AND when people have got up, it doesnt matter if the bedrooms arent YET back to the normal temp anyway. Either the bedroom occupant is still in the bed, and has been at the setback temp up till then, or they have got up and have moved to the central areas, stupid.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever had a fucking clue about the basics.
Reams of your pathetic attempts at a troll flushed where it belongs.
No wonder the best you have ever been able to manage is HVAC ape.
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Rod Speed wrote:

Well you said the ductless split is just like the strips except...........
So I merely pointed out the fundamental difference you were not aware of.

Just the fundamental difference. The heat strips get the job done but you have not really thought out this parallel heat scheme of yours in the central area. You get a little bit of the series action as you try to trickle heat into the rooms.

That is what I said. The booster is in the central area, it heats the central area in addition to the primary system. Therefore it and the primary system warms up the central area so the booster shuts off and the primary system shuts off or the central area is overheated. So you can think about your multiple thermostats and where exactly you are going to put the primary stat. Maybe even motorized dampers on the primary supply to the central area. So you shut off the supplies to the central area so not to overheat but you need to draw return from the central area to try and get this extra heat to the rooms. Hmm this depressurizes central area, causes infiltration, increases heat load.
Don't see you getting out of overheating the central area rocket. Give up now on the ductless booster its a dog.
A big problem is to get heat to the other areas, you will most likely find that you need to overheat the central area. Others have pointed out how this wastes energy. I pointed out how it also reduces the efficiency of the booster in addition to wasting heat.

Probably the primary system moves air based on the fact that perhaps it supplies air maybe 20 degrees F warmer than the room air, and this is to maintain temperature not recover the temperature. Maybe it gets up to a little higher differential in your easy climate and relatively warm winter ambient maybe you are getting 25 to 30 F degree rise. Okay lets call it a 25 degree rise.
See you are a little vague, and won't layout exactly what you are proposing, probably worried as it makes you feel vulnerable but here is a stab at a scenario.
If the primary system was in heat mode, and in your case the summers are so dry you never have to worry about dehumidification , then the primary system could be sized for the design heat load.
An elevated return temperature from the common area is not really going to do much here, maybe cause the air into the primary heat pump to be 2 degrees F or so warmer than straight return from all the set back rooms. A slight increase in return temperature will also lower the heat output of the primary heat pump and cause a slight drop in COP.
So if you neglect the drop in heat output/COP of the primary system here is some quick numbers for some easy math that also ignores thermal mass.
If the primary system was doing a 25 degree F rise, the central booster without overheating the central area gives a net heat increase to the supply air temp of the primary system of perhaps (2F) 8% as a best case.
So maybe the ambient is 45F, set point is 70F and the set back temp is 65F.
Design differential 70-455F, trying to recover 5/35x100% and recovery scheme increases heat output by 8%. Think you will be waiting for the sun to start shining or you are going to be really elevating the temperature of the central area to be able to recover.
So with a primary system sized for 100% of the design load and with a ductless central booster you have a slim chance of being able to recover and this is far from a viable scheme. So far most of the savings of this booster heat pump are eroding away.
Maybe overheat that central area and have a bunch of through the wall fans to draw heated central core air into the rooms then transfer back through door grilles, under cut doors. Just keeps getting more rediculous.
I'll tell you what rocket, you summarize a scheme that pays for itself in 20 years over heat strips and I will concede you can set back a heat pump in OZ. Good luck when the climate is so humid it needs DX cooling tho.
Or forget the setback, just keep the same low setpoint, and have a treat in the afternoon when the sun warms up the house to 70F. Without the strips you are going to be challenged to recover. You recover for comfort and if you are not going to be comfortable except for late afternoon why bother in the first place.
Hey maybe summarize it is 68F being set back to 66F, it will recover but the set back savings dry up.
I think your central booster scheme is a dog, but please feel free to work it all out and summarize it. Maybe you can finally give me that nose rubbing.

Well you gave up on the morning setback, so now just have the central area warm and all is well. How about some auxiliary radiant floor heat in the loo. Or is it truly a throne there in Oz, you all take a crap in the middle of your living room?

Actually that will be analogous to what it is like when you find out you have to heat the central area up to 80 degrees F to get your recovery scheme to work.

Hey I must be good at this troll stuff, I got you to actually say something beyond blotto and wet paper bags.
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Couldnt bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never ever had a fucking clue about the basics.

Dont need any of that, just a stat for the ductless split system in the primary area, set a little below the normal temp required.

Pathetic, really.

Your problem.

No you dont. The primary system will equalise the temps fine.

Not a fucking clue, as always.

It doesnt recover the temp, the ductless split system does that, stupid.

There wont be ANY rise when the stat for the ductless split system is set to a bit below the normal temp required and is JUST used to come back off setback instead of using the strips for that.

Lying, as always.
Reams of irrelevant crap flushed where it belongs.
I WASNT DISCUSSING MY PERSONAL SITUATION, APE.
Reams of a pathetic excuse for a troll flushed where it belongs.

Wrong again, just discussing how to do a system if you dont want a morning setback.
Reams of a pathetic excuse for a troll flushed where it belongs.
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Rod Speed wrote:

You were just making so much progress too.

Rooms will never recover then, think about it. That booster is not doing much more than recovering the core if you cut it off before the primary system. You need a booster in every room for this. Like adding a heat pump to a home that originally had electric baseboard heaters in each room.
Here is the Parable of the House with Electric baseboard heat that upgraded to a heat pump
Leave the baseboard heaters in place with their own line voltage stat set down just a little lower than what the PRIMARY sytem stat is set for. This is more of an auxiliary heat strategy when the heat pump cannot keep up to an extreme ambient. You have the heat pump trying to keep the space warm and if temperature drops, the electric baseboards kick on.
So you are going to use this scheme for recovery. Except it only gets close to recovering in one room. Hey I told you to put a ductless split in each room to have a snowball's hope in hell with your stupid idea.

Well the only way you are going to recover with your dog scheme is to overheat the core.

How? Little gremlins carry the btus by magic? You have no clue.

Well work it out, show how it does-- maybe summarize a viable scheme. Why didn't I think of asking you that before? I think your standard repettoire is your subconcious coming out, like a freudian slip, but the problem is you are only describing yourself. I plagerized that from some one in here, but it seems to be true.

It is circulating a mixture of air at various temperatures, the central area with the booster will be perhaps 4 or 5 degrees F warmer than the air in the rooms while the remainder of the house is trying to recover.
The primary system heats this air. As you will see, maybe introducing air at 25 degrees warmer than the room temperatures, maintains the room at that temperature, and by supplying air a little more than 25 degrees warmer than the room air temperature it may then elevate or begin to recover the room temperature back to a comfortable level. It depends on how your system is tailored :)

It simply heats the rooms, everywhere it is ducted too.
If you would get out a note pad, you could write down a tip. The sensible heat supplied to the room is proportional to the airflow to the room. and the temperature differential between the hopefully warm supply air and the room air. A heat pump extracting heat from a temperature source near the freezing point of water may elevate the supply air temperature by upwards to 20 degrees F above the room temperature.
Now keep reading and maybe we can take a look at how this heat will transfer without the help of gremlins.
Ouch that must hurt.

LMAO, what the hell did you think I was talking about the room temperature jumping by 25 degrees, too funny. Mind you by the time you work out your ductless booster the central area temperature may have climbed 15F above a 5F setback by the time the rooms recovered. We already covered the heat wasted with the elevated core temperature so we can move on.
Grab the same notebook and write this down. In your location in the land down under, maybe your heat pumps have a warmer ambient heat source than perhaps 0C. When the temperature source of a heat pump increases, then the heat output of the heat pump also increases. I thought you had this concept down before. So possibly with a 7C ambient, the heat pump may be able to warm the air coming out of the ducts by 25 degrees F above the room temperature.
For example 65F return, 25 degree rise, maybe a 90F supply plus a little fan heat.
So when you work out how much heat goes to the rooms, from the primary system, it will be proportional to the temperature difference between the room air being drawn into the return and the supply air being delivered to the room.
Perhaps the core area of the home has 25% of the heat loss and therefore needs 25% of the air of the primary system. Your booster gets the core up to 70F quickly and the rooms may have warmed from 65 to 66F in the time the booster got the central area up to 70F..
The temperature of the air going into the primary heat pump could then be 0.25x70 +0.75x66gF
So maybe the supply air, leaving the heat pump to the rooms is now 67+25F instead of 66+25. You gained some extra heat input into the rooms as the core area warmed.
Without overheating the open area of the home all that booster does is help the core recover quick, and gives you a control problem to deal with. Does not really add that much heat to the rooms.
I hear when you learn something the hard way, you never forget.
Subtract 32 then divide by 1.8, it may be less confusing.

Well summarize exactly what you are proposing, you are simply vague and the scheme evolves all the time. It was a ducted system, a ductless system and a swamp cooler last time I heard.

No real point in setting back at all, just keep it cool all the time. But we were talking about the typical setback.
So lets keep it to Awake Leave Return Sleep. I was saying before that unless you go to extreme, unviable situations, the heat pump without strips is going to have a tough time recovering in the morning without the help of some sunshine. And to recover before the return period, you will need the help of the sun also. The Sleep Awake setback is the most challenging one to deal with, so it is convenient when you want to neglect it.
You actually have a climate where it may be possible to do this, without the extremes, just I doubt you will be able to figure it out. I was looking at areas down there average lows in July were like 6 to 9C, average highs in July were hitting 15C, you should almost be able to do this. Especially if it is as dry as you say, then you do not have to worry about the poor dehumidification in the cooling season.

This trolling is a lot of work, but your standard repetoire is slowing down a bit. Seems you get beat up when you deviate from it. Is it tomorrow there yet, you have been answering me all day. I still have some line on my reel.
I suspect another round of wet paper bags, blotto, pig ignorant and HVAC ape to be forthcoming. That keeps you safe at least, because you are really starting to embarass yourself when you say anything else.
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Abby Normal wrote:

the facts contradicted his claims he reverted to the "reams" and similar auto responses. There was a discussion here about whether non-citizens were covered by the Bill of Rights. He insisted they were not. I posted a Supreme Court decision showing that they ,in fact, were covered. His rebuttal consisted of "irrelevant" It appears that he is a lifetime welfare recipient lacking education,income and social or communication skills.He also seemed obsessed with the fact that I have a good paying sales job, something that semi-literate, uneducated ill mannered dolts can never achieve, I find the group to be more pleasant after I kill filed the child as I now only see his repetitive non-responses when someone quotes him.
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Some pathological liar sales fuckwit claiming to be
Reams of your pathological lying flushed where it belongs.

You've been told REPEATEDLY that I have never ever recieved even a CENT of welfare, EVER. You just keep lying about that.

You've been told REPEATEDLY that that is just another lie.
My education and income leaves yours for dead liar.
No surprise that the best you have ever been able to manage is sales fuckwit. Ideal 'job' for a pathological liar.

You're lying about that too.
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latmu wrote:

you forge your address. Regards to sam jones from Russia. If someone said I was on welfare I would laugh but, for some reason, it seems to upset you.
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Lying, as always.

No it doesnt, its just the proof that you are a pathological liar.
No surprise that the best you have ever been able to manage is sales fuckwit. Ideal 'job' for a pathological liar.
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Actually, without the sale, nothing else happens.

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You dont need a sales fuckwit to have a sale.
Even you should have noticed that it can be completely automated now.
Then you dont have the problem with pathological liars either.

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latmu wrote:

Oh, lookee. Mr Welfare made up a new name. Just because your welfare check is automated does not mean real jobs are. Tell us how an open house for real estate is automated. How about a test drive for a car? Tell us how a retailer automates the layout and text of an advertisement. How about a tv commercial? While lonely welfare dolts might cherish automated phone calls to solicit business real people respond better to a live call.

What jobs have you managed, Mr. Welfare? Oh right, a fast food job that lasted a few hours.
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Seems like you should really consider the sales field then.

For small sales, yes. We happened to buy our last car, couch, bed all belly to belly.

Well, that'd be fortunate as you certainly have to deal with them on the net.
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Must be a sales fuckwit.

Your problem. I'd personally buy all of those online myself.
Ideally have an ape deliver the car to my house unless it would be cheaper to order it online and pick it up in person.
I order the gigantic widescreen TV online, on ebay actually, and got the replacement hot water service online too.
The last thing I ever need is any damned fool sales fuckwit involved.

Not when buying stuff I dont. The consumer legislation and using a card or paypal to buy them fixes that problem very effectively indeed.
Sales fuckwits completey automated out of existence ? Sooner the better.
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Welfare leech, unemployable Rod Speed posting as latmu wrote:

Secondly tell us how a house or a car (especially a used one) can be sold without a sales rep? Do you think tv and radio stations along with newspapers just sit and wait for advertising to walk in the door? Lacking any job experience you might believe that. My guess is that you once tried some menial sales job such as magazine subscriptions on the phone and, for obvious reasons, were turned down. We understand your bitterness as you have no job,life,money, skills, education, communication skills or friends. That Rod Speed FAQ says it all.
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